Humza Teherany, Chief Strategy and Innovation Officer at Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment, joins Beyond the Prompt to unpack how AI is reshaping leadership, workflows, and company culture. He shares how returning to his technical roots changed his approach in the C-suite and why building hands-on is now a non-negotiable. From agentic development to idea competitions and instant prototyping, this episode is a masterclass in how to lead from both the boardroom and the command line.
In this episode, Humza Teherany breaks down how he bridges deep technical fluency with strategic leadership at MLSE, home to the Raptors, Maple Leafs, and more. He shares how a vacation turned into an AI reawakening and how that hands-on immersion led to a fundamental shift in how his organization builds and experiments.
Humza walks through MLSE’s build in a day practice, their internal AI platform, and why speed to prototype now unlocks more than just efficiency. It changes who gets to shape the future. He, Jeremy, and Henrik explore the limits of traditional enterprise AI rollouts and how to build spaces for superusers that enable company-wide transformation. The conversation covers how technical literacy impacts credibility, why idea execution is the new differentiator, and how Humza’s five-year-old inspired a bedtime story app powered by AI.
Whether you're a CTO, a founder, or just figuring out where to start, Humza makes a compelling case. The best leaders don’t delegate this moment. They build.
Key Takeaways
MLSE: mlse.com
LinkedIn: Humza Teherany - LinkedIn
00:00 Intro: Humza Teherany and MLSE
00:27 The Role of C-Suite Leaders in AI
01:08 Reconnecting with Technical Skills
02:08 Diving Deep into AI Tools
03:03 The Importance of Hands-On Learning
04:25 Progression from Consumer to Technical AI Tools
07:28 Building a Business Case for AI
10:03 Creating a Culture of Innovation
14:00 Implementing AI in Business Operations
21:05 Challenges and Strategies in AI Adoption
26:17 Organizational Structure for AI Success
32:02 The Importance of Reviewing and Planning Code
33:01 The Future of Solo Developers and New Technologists
34:58 Reimagining Company Structures with AI
38:55 Key Skills for Future Technology Leaders
41:19 Personal AI Experiments and Innovations
46:52 Encouraging Creativity in Children with AI
49:11 The Debrief
📜 Read the transcript for this episode: building-an-enterprise-ai-innovation-lab-a-master-class-with-humza-teherany-chief-strategy-officer-of-maple-leaf-sports-and-entertainment/transcript
[00:00:00] Humza Teherany: Hi, I'm Hamza, chief Strategy and Innovation Officer for Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment. We're the organization that runs the Toronto Raptors, the Toronto Maple Leaf, Toronto fc, and many other teams, uh, along with the entertainment concert company as well. And I'm really interested today to talk about how to drive innovation with ai, how to accelerate it, how to be strategic as business leaders and technology leaders, as well as the crazy, super nerdy stuff.
[00:00:29] Humza Teherany: I developed a group about a year ago called our V one Lab.Our version one lab, which are, which is our AG agentic development lab, and our V one lab at MLSE allows us to drop in an idea on a Monday. And have a full stack app latest by the end of that week. Usually the very first version, the 0.1, is within several hours, and that's because of the ability to employee agent development principles, which doesn't mean that you don't use vibe code, uh, you don't know what you're doing or you don't look at security aspects.
You don't plan out your work. You're not using. MD files or, you know, planning mechanisms or cps or all these other technical things that you will, you would do. So you still have to be a great developer, but if you can harness how to use it from a technical perspective, it is absolutely game changing. So for me, I've probably built three or four platforms as a full stack developer in RV one Lab, hand in hand with my own full stack developers.
Now keep in mind, you know, uh, I was a coder 25 years ago and I was doing PHP Pearl and a SP. So microsoft.net. And, and that was a long time ago and I was never a full stack developer. But now whether it's authentication or database or backend or front end or design, which is even in the last two weeks, is agentic design has progressed.
[00:01:54] Henrik Werdelin: What do you use
[00:01:55] Humza Teherany: Immense?
[00:01:55] Henrik Werdelin: What tool? Immense, what tool do you use for that?
[00:01:57] Humza Teherany: So the Claude released, uh, a paper on the Claude design skill. Hmm. The con, their concept of how to encompass the design skill. And it fundamentally produces 100, in my opinion, a hundred percent better design by just employing that skill.
Yeah. And the second one is Gemini. Gemini three. Pro preview, I guess is, um, is incredible at front end design. Incredible, absolutely incredible front end
[00:02:21] Jeremy Utley: design. So, but, and make your, make the business case comes up, make, because I think even the framing of, we built three full stack apps, you know, uh, soup to nuts Monday to the end of the week.
I, the ROI there. Right? Why is, why is that? I mean, I, I'm amazed, but if I'm a senior leader in a, in another kind of classic business, what is the impact to that? Why would I want to stand up a lab that can create full stack apps in a week? Like what's the business impact?
[00:02:49] Humza Teherany: Yeah. I think the opportunity is, imagine maybe the best way for me to describe it is, is this way, you know, everybody has ideas.
Everybody in an organization has ideas. Well, what if. Half of your organization or third of your organization has the ability to take an idea and bring it to life in near real time, right? Think of how long it takes people to do research, to do analysis, to do decks, to sell ideas, to figure out what the next big thing is, what the next efficiency idea is.
It could be anything. It could be margin and EBITDA growth. It could be net near revenue growth. It could be fan experience. And you know, I think. Ideas are wonderful and amazing and everybody's got ideas, but it's always been in business about what you do with those ideas. So now we've got capability inside our organization that can bring ideas to life within hours. And you're not done in hours. You're not, this is not a magic pill. Just helps you go a lot faster to determine whether you've got a winning idea or a non-winning idea, in which case you should move on. So we, we've done a lot of work on. Those kinds of concepts.
[00:03:59] Jeremy Utley: To what extent is it a requirement of a leader that they are capable of going deep? So because there's a model that says, Hey, I've gotta delegate AI to somebody who gets it. Right. See, I mean, you're in the C-suite, right? And there's a model that says the C-Suites job is to delegate this, that it's it.
Yeah. Whereas you, to me, this archetype of a C-Suite leader capable of strategic thinking and deploying organizational resources and stuff. You're also running terminal via CLI on your personal deposit at all. Yeah. Right. So can you talk for a second about whether that is essential, whether it's nice to have, how you think about that skillset?
[00:04:39] Humza Teherany: Um, I think about a year and a half ago, I, I transitioned back to my, you know, 20, 25 year ago technical self. Um, and, and I think as you grow in your career, especially in the, in the tech space, in a company. You know, sometimes you start really technical and then you grow into the business side of things and you lose those technical skills.
Um, and I always maintain the technical scale of development and kind of hacking around at things, uh, throughout my, you know, the back half of my career, I'd say more as a C-Suite executive. I've been a CEO, chief Strategy officer, chief Technology Officer, chief Digital Officer. I've had a lot of different kinds of roles, but a year and a half ago.
Um, just thinking about all of the enhancements that were coming out on consumer AI is really what got me back into it. And I was on vacation with my wife and my daughter, and I had about 10 days to, to disconnect and I, I really didn't disconnect. Uh, but I started just kind like reading, it was 10 days to
[00:05:37] Jeremy Utley: reconnect, disconnection, reconnect.
Yeah.
[00:05:39] Humza Teherany: I mean, it was just, you know, it was just like personal passion project where it started and it was, you know, learning about what. Chachi Petit was doing just from a consumer perspective. And then I looked into Quad and, you know, looking at all these other models that were coming out. And then probably two months into kind of like really going deep on all the consumer tools and trying all the consumer tools, which included things like, uh, lovable and bolt.
You know, being able to kind of like just build fast prototypes. I was like, man, I gotta, I gotta get back into the models I get. I gotta get back into understanding how this, like how does an LLM actually work and how's it built? What does it mean for software? And then in and around that time, Claude Code, um, actually Claude Code was much later, I think it was cursor windsurf, you know, getting kind of back into VS code and kind of operating these things inside vs code.
And it really, it took off from there. And I, I've spent probably since then, I'd say probably two hours at minimum per day learning. And my learning comes from, I'm a hands-on learner. Uh, I wasn't a great student in school 'cause memorization is tough for me even now, but I'm a great hands-on learner is what I just discovered later in my, in my life, my professional life more so.
So for me, it was all about just trying things, building things, getting back into it. And a lot of my self training has come through YouTube and X, uh, x just for like what people are doing, what they're finding. What the latest innovations are, especially around AI and coding. Now, can I, can I ask you a question
[00:07:16] Henrik Werdelin: then on the 'cause?
I think this is very important because I think a lot of people in C-Suite often, you know, don't necessarily use AI as much as they promote other people should. And there does seem to be this kind of magic that appears when you have a lot of domain expertise and then you increasingly understand when these models are good to that.
There seemed to be this kind of like step function you can do where obviously first you become very good at using one of the foundation models within normal chat service like Chet. But then a lot of people that I know that are very into this and are getting very good at it then start to kind of understand how to, for example, use something like clock code or curse or some of these more you see technical tool.
Would you help me try to describe kind of like how do you go from, okay, I know chat, GBT, I've been using it in a browser. To maybe go to, I now have installed the desktop version and I have added my first function so it can now look through my drive or another thing that's easy to, I now have clock code installed to now I know what Cursor is.
And how would you see that kind of like journey for people who might not even have a technical background?
[00:08:26] Humza Teherany: I think it, it's such an interesting question. I, I was having this similar debate with my head of engineering this actually last week on, should we just start putting some of our more technical people, some of 'em our more technically savvy people inside the CLI?
Because just explain
[00:08:42] Henrik Werdelin: to what CLI is for most people.
[00:08:44] Humza Teherany: Yeah. Know this com command line interface where you can run, you know, if you have a Claude Desktop app or you have the open AI app on your phone or on your desktop, think of the command line interface as just. Being directly in the guts of it, and you can still ask questions and go back and forth.
And her perspective was, it might be too technical and my perspective was you're probably right. But there probably is a subsection of people that would benefit from that. But to answer your question directly, I think it's a progression. I think, um, you know, these things can be daunting. The pace of change can be daunting.
The technical terms can be daunting. I think you do have to have a technical understanding of how these things work. So from the progression aspect of kind of mastering these things, uh, a as you go, I would say, you know, master the consumer stuff first. Like, learn what Quad is good at and what OpenAI chat GPT is good at.
You know, learn the consumer aspects of what you could do inside those platforms. I think specifically those two platforms and Gemini's, you know, really incredible for a lot of things, uh, I think they're getting a lot better on the consumer side too. But I would say you, you know, first step one is. Learn how it works.
Like just, and the beauty of it is you can do all of these things right inside any of these chatbots, right? You can go in it and say like, literally, look, this might sound dumb, but like, y you know, in the early days I was going in and it asked me, like, explain to me very simply, how does LLM training actually work?
'cause I wanted to refresh my memory and I didn't wanna go read a technical journal. You know, you could, you could ask it anything and sometimes you feel a little bit silly asking it maybe basic questions or refresher questions, but. It's just an unlimited amount of learning that you can do directly in these apps that are now sitting at our fingertips.
So I would say, no,
[00:10:29] Jeremy Utley: you have an AI tutor, you have an AI tutor in your hands. Yeah,
[00:10:32] Humza Teherany: learn the basics, master the public apps that are out there. Once you've done that, I think you can kind of cross the chasm to potentially getting into vs. Code running cursor, running quad code, or running code X or running
[00:10:45] Jeremy Utley: Gemini.
Right. Okay. But, but hang on one second here before we go there, or before we cross the chasm. Make the business case. 'cause I think they're, they're cross it. Yeah. Henrik's, you Henrik words on the other side of the chasm. Yeah. I love it. So, so one thing, but for, you just said you spend, you're a C-suite leader, you spend two hours per day hands-on learning.
If you just assume you work eight hours a day, which you don't, that's 25% of your time. Yeah. From a senior leader perspective, the opportunity cost of that time is enormous, right? North time is far more expensive than other people's, right? And I think a lot of people, a lot of senior leaders especially, cannot justify, uh, investing in learning because the opportunity cost of their time is so high.
So could you use, for people who don't know what the ROI is, so to speak, can you make the business case of. The value of, I mean, and what I'm asking you to do is kinda humble brag. What's been the impact to the business that you have made because you've gone so deep? Because I think that would really help people justify I need to personally spend time, even though it's a high opportunity cost.
Humble brag. Go ahead.
[00:11:56] Humza Teherany: Yeah. Uh, great question. Um, you know, the two hours a day is not during work hours. It's actually in personal time, so it's in my drive in or in my train ride in. Obviously weekends and evenings because obviously, you know, day jobs, especially if you're a, if you're a leader in an organization, is uh, is busy and you can't just carve out two hours a day to go do side projects.
Right. So I would say the reason I've done that, and the reason I will continue to do that for the foreseeable future is because I think these technologies, whether you use consumer versions of them to be better at your job, to be more. Impactful in what you're doing or you wanna understand it at a great degree because you might maybe wanna be a founder or develop something that, that's incredible, is that these technologies have changed the world and they will continue to change The world.
Included in that are legacy businesses that have been around forever. And it doesn't really matter if you're a, a food service company or a cleaning company, or a sports and entertainment organization or a a a TV network. These things are fundamentally gonna change and have change how business has done.
I think the opportunity is for most organizations is to adopt and understand. And I think the human side of it is probably the hardest part, which is kind of helping people and organizations understand the value and, and getting them to switch and change and operate in a different way, which is just human behavior.
So change is hard, and I think this is, you know, it's no different with these technologies. But the, that's the reason why. The reason why is because it's changed everything. And for me personally, you know, I've now been able to build full stack apps for MLSE and you know, we have a, I developed a group about a year ago called our V one Lab. Our version one
[00:13:48] Henrik Werdelin: Can you give a few examples of like what the V one lab kind of like? Yeah. You know, what do they come up with and how do they then actually have real impact into the organization?
[00:13:57] Jeremy Utley: Yeah, yeah. Maybe, maybe one winning idea and one idea that you learned wasn't winning would be kind of cool.
[00:14:03] Humza Teherany: Yeah. I think the one winning concept we've employed now is, um, we built a platform just titled MLSE, uh, ai, and it's our.
It's kind of our ai, uh, homepage. It's kind of our landing spot and we have probably about 12 different AI apps that we've built in there. And in MLSE ai we also have, uh, an app called I ideagen. And Ideagen is, um, if you guys remember, dig, do you remember the website? Dig? Yeah. From a long time ago, made by a guy named Kevin Rose.
Um, I hear we're coming back, but that's a different story. Yeah, so Dig, dig is, you know, is a simple concept where people can go and post stuff kinda like Reddit, but you're able to, you know, upvote and down go ideas. And that was a concept of dig a very long time ago. So we, we took similar concepts to that and have, uh, and have actually recently launched Ideagen out to all of Maple Leaf sports and entertainment.
And it allows anybody in their organization to go put in an idea and it allows other people to vote on the idea. So. Know, just, just that small change means that the ideas now have the opportunity to grow from anywhere, to get supported from anywhere, and the best ideas will grow to the top. These, these are not necessarily ideas about ai.
These are business ideas. It could be anything. They could be from our usher on the front line to our server in the restaurant, to CEO of the company. Could anybody, and I think these things are incredibly. Um, democratizing of bringing the right information up, but also then once every quarter. Now we might do it once every month, but we've decided on every quarter, um, is we take the top three ideas and we do what we call build in a day.
And so on one day we take those three ideas and the people who came up with those ideas, and we sit in a room for the entirety of the day. In fact, our first build in a day is coming up in two weeks. And there's three people, one person building each idea. How cool. Just that, on that one day. How cool. And then we have a demo day the next morning.
Now I and Sandra, who's, who's my VP of engineering are, are both builders for building a day, right? Along with one of our agent developers that sits in our B one lab. So our concept with that is that you could do anything. You gotta pick the right thing to work on. Hmm. Right. It, it's critically important to, to, to pick the right one on your other question of, um, you know, what did we get that isn't right?
Well, I think we started off, um, some time ago building almost micro apps, you know, so there was an app for, uh, research, there might have been an app for analysis, there might have been an app for creating content, you know, copywriting, all these kind of small things that. You know the LLMs are really good at, but you want to enable large groups of people to have these capabilities.
And we've learned that it's gotta be more of like a software as a service kind of experience where you go in to do a set of tasks associated to your job. So one example of where we pivoted from that is we've created a platform called MLSE Deep Dive. And the deep Dive platform allows you to. Go into the platform and brainstorm any idea.
So you're able to go in there and basically say you create a project and you say, I wanna figure out, you know, I wanna research all of the different LLMs and I wanna figure out the best one to use. And you could just go crazy doing research back and forth and back and forth, back and forth once you build that context.
Or it could be a launching a brand new business idea. It could be anything. Once you build all the context, which you might build in an hour, in a day, in a month. We then take all of that context and send it to a, a deep research capability that we've built and custom provided instructions to in terms of what we're trying to get answers to.
And then it actually produces a report that's very contextual to our industry, sports and entertainment, with all the context and all the deep research. And then you can start to take that report and stick it into a really beautiful presentation format and do things like add images to it. And other things that you might want to, and just kind of keep iterating.
So the, the concept is you're able to take an idea that you might have in your head, build on it over a period of time, just like you would if you were in a company with colleagues going to meetings, spitballing ideas with other people, maybe going to the development team and saying, could you do this? Or we're going to the marketing team and saying, could you think about how we might do, do this particular thing?
But you're just doing it in this contained environment. Then you're also able to produce marketing material. So you're able to produce posters, imagery, app mockups. So now you can enrich your idea. And we created a version of V zero as well internally. So everybody's used the Versal V zero app, which allows you to go in and instruct it with a whole bunch of things, and it produces like really beautiful kind of in the moment.
Conversational based creative. Can I set quick
[00:19:11] Henrik Werdelin: questions on the ideas that
[00:19:14] Humza Teherany: Yeah.
[00:19:14] Henrik Werdelin: So the challenge for many, I would assume is increasingly that the tools themselves can do a lot, but they can do so much that they become a little bit numbing for people that are not used to think like this. And so in many ways it seems what you guys are providing is obviously, uh, access to the technology, but increasingly you're kind of.
Showing people process or ideas for what they can actually use. This tool, like the, the stuff that you're doing is as much a use case as it is a piece of software. Is that how you think about it?
[00:19:50] Humza Teherany: We think about it as, um, similar to how we thought about software pre ai, which is it's gotta be solving a problem.
It's gotta have product market fit. We gotta be picking the, you know, it was much more expensive to do these things two years ago. You're still spending, you know, cycles with people's minds and energy and you wanna focus those in the right area. So it's exactly that. Andrick, I think it's picking the right ideas, doubling down on the things that can scale.
And Jeremy, maybe going back to your ROI question, if you can pick the right things and have people work on the right ideas and have kind of the human side of it, non-technical side of it, join with the technical side of it. And at the end of that you might have somebody say, wow, this, this new thing we've developed is amazing.
I used to do this in all these manual ways and now I can do it in one place. And those are mainly the non-technical users that will provide that feedback very quickly 'cause they'll see the value in it. I think that's when you know, you're kind of hitting the, you know, the impact stuff. And I would say this isn't the crazy cutting edge stuff as you guys know.
This is just like the, what are you gonna do That's basic day-to-day to help your organization to grow better research. Better analysis, faster prototyping, faster presentations. You can spend that 80% of the time on other things that are much more value added, growing your business, coming up with the next big bet.
[00:21:08] Henrik Werdelin: Well, that one thing I also think about when you're mentioning these is, and this might be just super obvious and so we can ignore what it is, but I think we're, we talked to an another person the other day who's saying he believes basically like 10, 15% of the organization and now these super use of ai, they're really good at it, and then mm-hmm.
They can basically do a lot of the stuff we talk about, and then you have the remaining that is still kind of like climbing up the learning ladder,
[00:21:31] Humza Teherany: right?
[00:21:32] Henrik Werdelin: It seems that for a lot of like the non super users. It's almost better for them to give them, to your point, a tool that it doesn't really even have to be about ai.
It is just, Hey, you're a salesperson that's selling sponsorships and Correct. Here's like a very easy way for you to make your deck ready for when you go out and sell. You're saving two hours and like, you know, like almost like not pitched it as ai, but just here, like all these new tools that we made on
[00:21:57] Humza Teherany: Bang on Hendrick.
I think that's, that's key. It's almost like the ai, I think the AI for the technical people and nerds is really interesting. We could talk about it for a long time. But for somebody who's not technical, they just wanna know like, how's it gonna help me do my job better? And if you could just almost take out out AI from the commentary exactly as you said it, here's a tool, use it.
It should help you go faster. And if you've done your job as a technologist or somebody who's looking to move the organization forward, the answer on that should be like, oh yeah, I could do my job way better in this. Right? And it just works.
[00:22:27] Jeremy Utley: So then there's a really important point, and Henry, I'm so glad that you drilled in here.
What we have not heard you say Hamza up to this point is talking about broad enterprise adoption. We haven't heard you talk about training. We haven't heard you talk about others learning to work with ai. What we've heard is a centralized function that is AI enabled, that is unleashing the organization with stuff they need versus equipping the organization with AI tools and then letting them figure it out.
Are we hearing that correctly? I'm not hearing you talk about driving it
[00:23:00] Humza Teherany: down. I think it's somewhere. I think for us it's somewhere in the middle. We have rolled out access to AI tools for large groups of people in the organization. We have training programs, uh, and we have access to various kinds of things that people can, can use to enhance their skills.
My personal learning in the last year and a half, two years on this has been, it's really hard to get people to change at scale in general terms. So if you're giving everybody a chat GPT license and saying, here's ai, be better. It's actually really hard 'cause like, what am I supposed to do in here? And if you're technical, maybe you know all the answers to that.
But if you're anywhere, you know, under very technical, you might be looking at that and going, uh, it's probably just easier for me to do this in my spreadsheet.
[00:23:47] Henrik Werdelin: Maybe the way to give people the reason to give people access is not to upgrade everybody. It is to find those 10, 15% who might be hidden around the organization.
And so that's our concept around
[00:23:58] Humza Teherany: our MLS AI platform, which is, you know, if you are in our. Partnership group, or if you're a marketing group or you're doing any kinds of idea or a generation of new concepts that are creative and beautiful, or you want to think of anything new or report or whatever, this is where you go to do it, right?
Those are the concepts that we're trying to double down on, which is for things like research and analysis and deck building and assessing a spreadsheet and doing all of those kinds of things. Here's where you go to do it, and I think those opportunities have a much. Higher, um, potential to grow fast.
You know, we, we've built an AgTech media access platform, which allows us to do basically video editing and it's connected into, imagine how much footage we have across our NBA teams or NHL teams. You know, we're very old organization in terms of all the footage that we have. So now our platform allows you to go in and through natural language, allows our producers to search for anything and you can search for anything, find anything very instantly.
And then you can also clip together certain clips to export to an XML to put into your video editor of choice and just get content out there faster. So, natural language video search, it's kind of an important one for us as a sports entertainment media company. We went big on that one. In fact, last year, our teams have built that, won the NBA innovation award, uh, on behalf of the Toronto Raptors, uh, by the NBA.
Because of what we did with that platform was fundamentally looking at video and production and just shrinking the time to get content out to a fan, to a partner to the market, social, et cetera, television partnerships, et cetera, by orders of magnitude. So I do think that there is an element of you wanted, in any organization, you want your workforce to be AI enabled and trained, of course takes time.
I think the fastest ROI is. Pick your top, you guys both said it. Pick your top 2, 3, 4 things and just make sure you get those 2, 3, 4 things. And whether you do that in a quarter or a year, it's all good. Just do that well and you'll get the progression, you know, just like most other tech platforms or programs that people would've done a decade ago.
[00:26:10] Jeremy Utley: So I I, I only give you this magic wand, here it is. Um, so you can edit. Thank you. And what I want to ask you to do, if you wave the magic wand, you, you're given kind of a blank slate. The CEO of another company says, we wanna set ourselves up for success. From an org design perspective, what do you suggest is the right structure?
And specifically, where does this capability sit? 'cause in some organizations it's kind of nested in marketing. In some it's the CHRO, some it's, you know, it. Where do you think the capability sits? Where does it report and what, what does it have responsibility for?
[00:26:46] Humza Teherany: Yeah. I, I think a role like this needs to report into the CEO, you know, or frankly be the CEOI think it's gotta be very close to, to the top person and the top people, and everybody has to understand what the capabilities are.
Um, because, you know, to where we started the conversation up, this conversation isn't just for the nerds. This conversation, in my opinion, is for everybody to some degree at this level. Because even if you don't understand hands-on keys on these things, you don't wanna understand the macro concepts of what these things mean and how you could enable it, even if you can't build it yourself, how you could enable it if you're the CEO of a company.
Um, because if you don't, then you won't understand and you'll be left behind in your organization orders of magnitude faster than any other. Any other time in sort of modern day technology, just because of the speed at which these things move and those companies that adopt it will move faster and faster.
And if you don't adopt it, ultimately you will, you know, you will move slower and slower on these things.
[00:27:51] Jeremy Utley: And so you say reports to the CEO, what kind of, Todd, can you talk for a second about, okay. How do you interface with marketing, for example? I mean, just to get very specific, how do you interface with.
Hr, right? What's marketing's responsibility versus this role's responsibility, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:28:07] Humza Teherany: So it's back to what we talked about with the ideas. Um, we get lots of ideas from our executives inside MLSE, you know, so my peers, our CHRO, our chief marketing officer, our, our chief operating officer, you know, all of these incredible people have awesome ideas.
And I'll give you, you know, I'll give you a story. Shannon Hosford, our chief marketing officer who came up with we the North. From the Raptors campaign that is very well known and a very award winning, you know, said about a month ago, like, Hey, it would be great if we, you know, I saw this thing that, that somebody else has, and it, I wonder if we could do something with it.
And it, it's kind of all these marketing agents talking to each other about just ideation. And, and there's like five or six agents speaking to each other. You know, we might have a revenue person in there and a performance marketer and a data person, whatever. We're like, all right, that's actually a great idea.
And we went out in a couple of days and, and we built it. So then she takes it, you know, puts it into her team, gets us feedback, and we start that loop. But that's when you have these things that really catch on when you've got the end users in an organization really saying, Hey, I have an idea. And that's what our Idea Gen platform is about, to kind of harness that at scale.
But I think for any organization, the ideas are there.
[00:29:19] Henrik Werdelin: How do you find, and what do you. Measure a person on that you hire into your, uh, agent team.
[00:29:28] Humza Teherany: So they, they have to be up to speed on all agentic development principles, which means that obviously they have to have great skills as a developer. They have to be able to write code and review code.
But do you really,
[00:29:42] Henrik Werdelin: do you, do you just put like a job specs or like, do you, and I ask because the only way that we've been able to find people. These days is that I troll YouTube and I find people with like, yeah, 10,000 followers, but not, yeah, 25. And then basically DM them and ask, do you wanna work with us?
And often they have, you know, a lot of skills but not a lot of money. So they're like, sure,
[00:30:04] Humza Teherany: it's a great way to do it. Um, I don't think I have a magic bullet answer on it either, but I think what we do is we've been able to find some really great people. It's people kind of like us who, who understand it, who have kind of the core skills and have chosen to take that, that right turn and go, okay, I'm not gonna be afraid of this thing.
It's not gonna mean that if I don't write any, every line of code that I'm less of a developer, it just means I'm gonna be so much better than everybody else around me as a developer, that I'm gonna have greater opportunities to grow. Like it. It's kind of a personal thing around growth for, you know, engineers and, and leaders.
But we actually do put them through a set of tests that are really driven through agentic principles. We'll say, we have a particular idea on this. We'd like you to use quad code, cursor, codex, whatever you want. We'll provide you access to it. We'll give you the environment, we'll give you an hour. How would you do it?
Hmm. You know, we, and we want them saying, yeah, we would use, you know, markdown files. We would use planning mode. We would build PRDs, we would use cps, we would employ the skills that are out there. Now from a, if you're using cloud code, whatever the thing is, you know, we want to know that those people know which models to use, right?
Because it's not one model that's gonna do everything. So from a technical development standpoint, we want people harnessing the workflow. And we've also started to develop our kind of our own workflow package. 'cause if you can master that, then. Then you're really at the cut and then you're really at the bleeding edge of you get all the business stuff done and get all the ideas.
Then you gotta have men and women people that are, have the ability to take those ideas and fly, not irresponsibly, but responsibly. And you know, I'd be remiss if I, if I didn't say that. At some point we move things from prototype V one lab to production and we don't, we don't launch products out there that are.
Vibe coded.
[00:31:57] Henrik Werdelin: Hmm.
[00:31:57] Humza Teherany: Um, in fact, we don't really vibe code. We, the way I describe it is, um, I'm adding you some context engineering terminology now. I think vibe coding seems like you're, you're just kind of hacking away with the chat bot without knowing what you're doing. That's contrary to what we do. I think you have to review code.
I think you have to look at what you're doing. I think you have to be able to plan an architect, but ultimately, I, I compare it to a pilot flying a plane. If you were to observe a pilot flying a plane. Very rarely would you see a pilot on a yoke steering the plane, right, right in the rain. They're just like, you know, you see them in the movies, but um, you know, a pilot knows what all those buttons are when pressed what and knows how to operate it as efficiently and effectively given all the conditions that they are dealing with and the stress that they're dealing with.
And I think Mag Agentic development, whatever word you want to give it. True agentic development with software skills is akin to that, and I don't, I don't have a word for it necessarily, and I think the words will continue to change, but those kinds of skill sets are absolutely game changing. Well, I think we'll see several billion dollar companies created in the next 2, 3, 4 years with solo devs, because I think people have the ability to do it.
[00:33:14] Henrik Werdelin: I also think it's unlock a new type of technologist. Right. You know, I think there are people that might not as yourself, like I'm, I'm sure you're cutting jobs are not up to scratch because it's been 25 years since you used them. Yeah. But you understand fundamental technical architecture. Mm-hmm. I mean, I come through a design background, but you know, I have done my Python class, you know, so like I, I understand the coil elements and I think.
People like myself and other systems thinkers that was never, never had the ability to build anything before.
[00:33:46] Humza Teherany: Yeah, right. I think
[00:33:46] Henrik Werdelin: now can, and I think, and to your point, can build quite robust systems while they, they won't be able to kind of like de buck the whatever goes, but often they don't have to because obviously the output is what's really matters.
And if it's up and running and it's not breaking, then you know, like it's often fine.
[00:34:08] Humza Teherany: Yeah. Yeah. I think the ability to put the pieces together and, um, and, and do it in a way that that is still quality, I think is, is also gonna be key. But for sure, just the models and the technologies around it are just getting so much better.
I, if I think of a year and a half ago, some of the models that were out there that were, you know, if you're writing reactor type script or whatever your language of choice is, right? You run into errors, you have bugs, you have to spend time debugging now. If you look at a model that just, you know, like an Opus 4.5, it's amazing what it can do.
Now, it's not perfect, but you'll be dealing with a lot less bugs and issues if you can kind of harness, harness this. So I think the future on the ability to create is massively different than it was two years ago, and I think it's all about the idea. It's what you put into that creation mechanism and what you get outta the other side.
If you can figure out the biggest things that might change your business. The other thing I would just throw out there, Jeremy, which I think is a bit to your, your earlier question on one of the most important things I think people have to think about if they were building their company today, how would they build it?
I think you have to, whether you do that in an actual sense in the company and you go, okay, we're gonna restart our company from today, you know, 50-year-old company, 60-year-old company. Part of what we, we think about in various areas of our business, and in fact across our businesses. If we were starting our company today, how would you build it?
Knowing all the things,
[00:35:37] Jeremy Utley: that's the important thing, right? Knowing all the things is actually critical. Right? And you can't, you can't imagine how to rebuild if you don't have that foundational knowledge of what the capabilities are right now. Yeah.
[00:35:48] Henrik Werdelin: When you say that's a C-Suite member and you have that thought, which I a hundred percent agree with very fast, we.
Kind of get outside the bounds of ai, right? And you're asking foundational strategy questions about your company, what business is it in? All those different things, right? Things that I think we all will have to answer in the H of ai. How do you think about having that conversation with your colleagues in the C-Suite and the CEO?
About, Hey, yes, there are technology components of here, but this will require us to potentially REA architecture, the design of the organization and other things that are not necessarily technical, but will be affected by the technology.
[00:36:31] Humza Teherany: I think it's fairly easy to get there and the way in which I've learned is, is the easiest way to get there, all of the mechanisms to get their take work is going back to what a company is built to do.
What their existing, forget ai, forget about technology. What is that company trying to do this fiscal year? What are their shareholders expect? What are the goals of the company? What are all the executives aiming to do already? And then I think if you can back it into that, there's the greatest opportunity to have support on whatever those initiatives are.
'cause it's not a side technology project or this AI thing. It's fundamentally connected to the thing that everybody's already aiming at. And then I think from there you have greater opportunities to, to think about how you would reimagine something completely. And that takes sponsorship right from the top sometimes from a board.
But I, I also think that most boards and most CEOs are thinking about those things already. And I think these things sort of have a natural progression to come together. But I do think it. Always needs to start with the company, the vision, what the company's trying to do. And then you do need a technologist, somebody who can straddle both sides.
Uh, which is what I love about my job, is for, you know, the majority of my back half of my career, my management side of my career, I straddle the, you know, the, the, the line in between cutting edge technology and business growth. And I think putting the two things together has. That's the inspiration on what I do and, and why continue to love what I do in this area.
Because when you can bring those two things together and you can actually see companies grow, there's nothing better from a professional standpoint.
[00:38:23] Jeremy Utley: Maybe that's kind of the perfect place to wrap because we talked about where this role would sit. You know, in an ideal world, we haven't talked about who you know if, again, if you're advising A CEO, who goes.
I wanna hire this person, I wanna hire this capability in. Who are you looking for? What are the key skills? And you kind of, you kind of hinted at it a little bit and you just described yourself, but if you could specify what are the search parameters that the senior leadership team is working for, if they wanna start to embed this capability
[00:38:54] Humza Teherany: in terms of the person that they need to bring in to help to drive.
Yeah. And, and, and play that role. Yeah. Well, I think it needs to be somebody deeply technical. I think it needs to be somebody deeply technical to understand. All of the detail of how you do it. And that's the first part you have to know, like if you want an organization leading technology, you know, in 2025 going into 2026, I, I do think you have to lead by example on these things.
Uh, 'cause if you don't know the detail of how it's done, then that's a big gap. Number two is I think it has to be a person who can build teams and hire great people to, to run. Those functions and achieve the best out of whether you have a team of 2, 3, 5, or 500. I think the efficiency factor of one single full stack developer has increased by a thousand percent, but you have to know how to fly that plane to do it from our previous example.
So you have to have somebody who can understand it. Then build system-wide thinking from a technical perspective inside the organization to actually execute. And the third one, which is the most important one, you know, which I probably put maybe first, is somebody who can bridge the gap between all of that stuff of what I just said and make it absolutely unimportant to everybody else in the business, right?
The most important thing is, hey, what are your ideas? How should we think about this? And if the person says. I don't really know what's going on out, out there to figure this out in a different way. That person needs to be able to say, well, I gotta have a good idea about that, and let's have a chat about it.
Don't worry about it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But you kind of have to go back to the, all right. You know what, I think we, you know, somebody might say, we do 500 pieces of content every month. Oh, all right, well, how do we do that? Right. And it's that, it's that how do we, how do we, how do we, and if you get to the point where.
You land on it and you say, wow, we could do these 500 pieces of content 30% faster, let alone 80% faster. You know, you now have a an ROI, which you need in any company there to keep going on these things. So I think those three things are really, really important. But the human side of it, the idea is the demystifying the AI stuff as complicated and as invigorating as it is, I think there are kind of two sides of the equation that are equally important.
[00:41:18] Henrik Werdelin: Can I just throw in a last question on that is what are some. New kind of like experiments you're doing in your own personal life with, with the AI
[00:41:31] Humza Teherany: I have, um, I think going back to the command line interface and having that kind of always up and running on my phone, connected in on my development server, uh, at home is, is just the ability to think and create at a, at a speed that I'd never been able to.
It's all the way from thinking and ideating to building something small, testing something. I think those, those concepts are, are incredibly powerful and, and sometimes I, it's almost like, how far can I take this? What else can I do? What else can I connect to it? I've started to think about ways that, you know, uh, financial planning with my own financial planning and taxes and things like that, that, you know, you can just rip through.
Through a command line interface by uploading your files in a private environment and not going online to do it somewhere.
[00:42:26] Henrik Werdelin: I gonna just give you this and which shows it's like a concrete thing that blew my mind. So I, um, I'm in the US on a visa and it takes like a quite a lot of work to renew the visa.
You have to answer literally a 60 or 70 question. A lot of them are like full tax return, stuff like that. And so I got the list of requirements from my, and I've been having this visa for a long time. So, but it has to be done every 18 months. On my specific visa. And so I got the requirements. I literally dropped it in clock code and I basically said, you have full access to my hard drive, which obviously have like my task return, all that stuff.
Yeah, yeah. Please just do as much as you can. And lo and behold, it just came back and it pretty much filled out like 70% of the whole thing. So Cool. It was so cool. I was like, okay, you know, I didn't have to do that. Got the visa. That's amazing. When USSH into Europe. To your box at home to use cloud code.
Do you use TX to make sure that you don't lose the terminal?
[00:43:21] Humza Teherany: You got it. Yeah, you got it. That's the, uh, that's probably the biggest hack in that setup because, uh, I, it's so cool. 'cause
[00:43:28] Henrik Werdelin: otherwise obviously like you're gone from it, so like, yeah.
[00:43:30] Humza Teherany: Yeah.
[00:43:31] Henrik Werdelin: So the big unlock for me when starting to use like clock code to.
Not just coding, but also like my workflows. It's this morning exercise where I have to-do list running with an MCP server and then I have basic clock code, review all my to-dos and pick stuff that has high confidence that it'll be able to solve for me. It puts it on its long list. Then I add more stuff to the list, and then I basically add it to spin up a bunch of subagents to go and solve all these different tasks for me.
And then I kind of do other stuff, and then throughout the day I jump in and kind of correct the stuff that I have. I wrote obsidian so I can have easy access to the mock down files on my local machine. Um, one thing that I haven't tried, but I was curious you have is to create like a master agent that you can use as the one that deploy to subtask to avoid you having 20 different taps open.
But just have one tap and then have that agent help you contact switch all. Yeah, not so have you done anything in that space?
[00:44:38] Humza Teherany: I have a master, um, agents MD file. And so all of the things that I, that I want that are consistent across all of, 'cause I, I actually use a, a mix of quad code as well as now cursor, but I'm strictly in the CLI and I just find, um, cursor composer one, which is their cursor's own model, fine tune model.
Might be a GLM fine tuning model, but it's excellent and it's super fast. And then obviously Opus 4.5 is super smart. Nine blocks blazing fast, but faster than sonet I think sometimes. Um, I guess depending on what, what you're doing. So that master agents.md file has all of my stuff in it, you know, I'll give you an example.
So I have a commute mode. So my commute mode is when I'm driving. I might have told Jeremy this when that, when I'm driving or when I'm on the train. I have the ability through, um, ox running on my home server access through term on my Android device, and I can just speak to it. So I can put my mic on and I go, I'm thinking of this, or I need to do this, or whatever.
And then when I have commute mode on, I can actually just turn it off and put it in my pocket. And when it's done, the response, it'll like speak it to me in my ear. Mm-hmm. So that's a, that's a workflow that I love. Um,
[00:45:56] Henrik Werdelin: is that Terminus that you use on your Android or
[00:45:59] Humza Teherany: I, no, I use, um, what's called term on, uh, on Android.
So it's, um, that's just an app itself? Yeah, term is an app. It's been around a long time. Um, I think it's open source and I use that, you know, here, this is, this, is it running on my phone? Right. So I've got, I've got multiple tabs of things. Let's see if this camera can pick it up. Each one of those tabs is, um.
Not really, but it's multiple tabs. You have to trust me for sure. So one is, um, cursor, CLI. The other one is cloud code. Could be a bunch of different instances that I'm running. So commute mode is amazing because I feel like I've got, you know, a, a terminal running in my phone that's always on, that allows me just to communicate with it through voice and to get the responses back in natural language.
Just somebody talking right back to me. And I kind of switched back and forth and it, it is really powerful. I found it to be very powerful. And the only other one I'd leave you with is, you know, I, I have a 5-year-old daughter and she's incredible. And, uh, she's, she's going to do whatever she wants to do in the world, but she and I, over a period of time, uh, and I'm, I'm teaching her some of this stuff.
'cause I think kids at a young age, being able to learn how to bring ideas to life is gonna be a next skill. Think of kind of vibe coding, but like, if you have a. Five or six or 7-year-old that is able to kind of create ideas, I think is extremely powerful. So we've created an app for her that, uh, we use at bedtime, sometimes, not all the time, and it's, uh, it's called Story World.
And so Story World is connected to all the latest image gen models and all of the rest of it. And so she at nighttime can say, daddy, I want a story about fill in the blank, uh, a princess and a dragon, I don't know, in a, in a, in a valley somewhere. That's magical. And so what we do is we actually custom create these stories.
And it obviously creates a story, but it also creates the image and the images kinda look like her and her grandparents and her mom and me and others, right? 'cause the, 'cause we've done all of this in this one app, it's amazing to me. The child can think of something in their imagination at five, see it come to life, experience it with their parents, you know, just a storybook.
But to be able to see that sort of possibility, I think. Unleashes maybe future creativity where a kid might say, yeah, I could do anything. I, I just, you know, kind of grew up that way where I thought of something and kind of made it, made it work and made it happen. So, and you know, we also do a lot of offline stuff.
I don't think the world is just, uh, online and ai. So we try to do a, a healthy mix of, uh, a boat.
[00:48:31] Jeremy Utley: That's awesome. That's a beautiful place to end. It's a beautiful place to end. It's really, really beautiful.
[00:48:35] Henrik Werdelin: Hey, thank you so much for coming on. Very, very inspiring to hear what you've done. Congratulations, man.
That was a really
[00:48:41] Jeremy Utley: fun conversation.
[00:48:42] Henrik Werdelin: Yeah, really. You're,
[00:48:43] Jeremy Utley: hopefully, hopefully Hamza, we can add 1% more to your fame profile through this episode. Well, listen, it's an honor. It's an honor
[00:48:52] Humza Teherany: talking to you guys. I think, uh, I think kind of the world you sit in and all the things that you see, and I listen to some of your, uh, and I didn't get through.
All of 'em obviously is a lot of, there's, there's, there's actually a lot of great content on this stuff, but, uh, listen to a couple of them and it's fascinating. It it is, it is really fascinating. So thank you very much for the opportunity and for creating space for me to be on here. It's, uh, honor.
[00:49:09] Jeremy Utley: Yeah. You're amazing.
I mean, what an amazing, what an amazing guy,
[00:49:14] Henrik Werdelin: right? He's such an incredible person. And I mean, like, it's, it's so nice to see and hear the energy of people who have ideas and have had like a long and cool career, but probably become more of a manager. Basically going like, Hey, this is an opportunity.
Come, go back and get my hands dirty. Um, yeah, and you can always like feel the energy, right? Like, I'm like, Hey, I'm actually able to actually do this stuff. Now again,
[00:49:39] Jeremy Utley: you said it's like going back to my 25-year-old self, which I just love. It's, it's pretty, it's a cool way to think about it. I think it does beg the question.
I mean, we've talked a lot about what does it take to build the capability in the organization. And to me to have a credible, technically minded, but also business savvy leader, Hamza, I mean, what we didn't even get into, and Henrik, I kept wanting to, but it just, the conversation didn't go there. But he's a very successful founder.
Hmm. He's, he's sold businesses. He is not entrepreneur. Right. We didn't even get in. I was hoping when I asked him at the end about skills that he would kind of get into entrepreneurial resourcefulness. 'cause I think it's actually a part of the equation. Yeah. But the interesting
[00:50:16] Henrik Werdelin: thing, he mentions three things.
He says, you need to have good technical understanding. Then you have to be able to. Basically get the people together. You need to be able to attract people and then you have to bridge into the domains like the CMOs. Yeah. And when I look at what are the technical chops that I always look for when we invest, mm, it's basically first agitation that's getting things done.
Which is kind of like having the technology, but also the energy to it. Wait,
[00:50:43] Jeremy Utley: just, just to be clear, you didn't say agitation. You said agitation. I said agitation. Yeah, agitation. Yeah. I just wanna
[00:50:48] Henrik Werdelin: make, I wanna make that word clear,
[00:50:50] Jeremy Utley: because that's a really good word.
[00:50:52] Henrik Werdelin: High luck for people who have something that propels 'em forward, right?
And clearly he did. And the second thing I talked normally about is what I call gravity. But that is so that you can gather people around your gravity to kinda hold a story, gravity to get other people to pay attention to, uh, what you're saying. And that's about recruiting people, recruiting sponsorship of ideas and stuff like that.
And then he talks about bridging. I normally, uh, talks about resourcefulness, like being able to basically. Get a lot done with a little, because often you don't have that. And he obviously also just showed that in spade. Right. You know, he talks about like learning, spending two hours a day learning, but not in his day job time.
Right. But in his commute time, for example. But I, I, I do think that he is such a good example of these new technology leaders that are coming and having success because that they can bridge domain expertise, technology. Experimentation, all these different things that historically was very defined as entrepreneurial, but I think now is becoming kind of the hallmark of an AI super leader.
[00:52:01] Jeremy Utley: Yeah, I love, love, love. His continued emphasis on the one hand mastering AI and on the other hand, downplaying AI in the organization.
[00:52:12] Henrik Werdelin: Yes.
[00:52:13] Jeremy Utley: I think that is a, I think the danger is to fall in the middle where you overhype AI and you under master it, right? Yes. But what he's done is he's maced far more than most folks I see in organizations, you know?
And when I met him, I think I told you this before we were recording. When I met him in Toronto, we had lunch together. He's showing me stuff. He's running on his phone. He's like this, he's like, watch this. And he's speaking into his commute mode. Hey, would you add a feature of my app? Just brainstorm and decide what feature you wanna add.
Then do it. And then we keep eating our sushi. And he goes, look at that. It just this feature on my, that's incredible. He's so, he's so, and yet I thought it was brilliant how he talked about his tactics in the organization are just, forget ai. Like what's the problem? What are you trying to do? And he's not leading with, okay.
And now AI can help you. It's just. He's, he's all about the how and understanding the what.
[00:53:03] Henrik Werdelin: Another thing that I think he brought kind of forward to me was that you had these super users and you need spaces for them to play. And so for him, that was a portal that they created or a lap. I think other organizations have other way of doing it, and of course you want to give everybody the opportunity to play with these things.
Because A, that's how you find out where they are. But also, you know, it's good for the organization journal, but I think one thing that was pretty profound is when you are then moving into the next phase where you're looking to get a gentech upgrades to your organization, you're looking at workflows that you could basically put to code.
Then there is, I think there has been this thinking that that will just organically materialize. This will be a grassroots kind of thing. I think what he laid out is no. This is something that is a capability of a specific subset of people. They'll identify basically best practices or good ways of using ai, but super contextualized to the specific work that people are doing.
And then you go back and saying, Hey, sales person, I have a better way of you making sales tech. Or, Hey, um, marketing person, here's a really good way for you to access data. Instead of going like, and now we're gonna learn how to prompt, you know, and, and then, right. And, and so this just seems that brilliant to be like a hyper efficient way to get people to use technologies.
'cause it's going to help them in their day job, not because it's technology for its own sake.
[00:54:39] Jeremy Utley: I, I think it'd be fun, I mean maybe it's because I was with Bryce yesterday, but on one hand you've got somebody like Bryce, Bryce from Moderna for people who don't, yes. Because, yeah, sorry. Listen to that episode.
He's great, but he is all about democratizing and enabling everybody. Right? And Hamza basically represents this other paradigm. I think it'd be fun. I'm proposing to you and you can tell me about the liked it or not. You get the two of them on a call. Yeah. And to talk about what, what is this groundswell, grassroots bottom up because right.
You think about what Bryce did, they had a prompt competition that's very different by the way, than an idea competition, isn't it? Right. Yeah. And on and on and on. I think it could be a super cool conversation. Uh, one thing I wanted to mention that I thought was really cool, um, especially if, you know, we're gonna do a little teaser trailer, so to speak, but I thought it was really cool how.
He mentioned that they've got this idea gen competition kind of inspired by dig, but he said basically in the organization, they've used AI to create this, but he said they've got basically an idea competition platform where anybody in the organization can submit an idea and anybody in the organization can vote or down vote.
Like dig. But then here's the thing. Here's the thing. People listen to this once a quarter. We take the top three and we do a build on a day. Each of the people who champion that idea gets to sit next to an genetically capable AI builder. And they go from concept to actual realized thing in a day. And to me that is if you don't have that mechanism of the build in a day, and he said, by the way, then there's a demo day the next morning.
Which shows the organization, we value your ideas, we can materialize them. It matters what you vote on. You should bring the stuff that you can't build. Like it creates all sorts of social momentum. By having that, I mean, I think Henrik, when we talked to Wade Foster Zapier, he talked about a hack week, and that's kind of a organizational layer.
If there's enough people in the organization, you're kind of capable of doing the quote unquote build in the day. You can do a hack week. But if there aren't people who are capable, I think to me this was a really authentic mechanism for Humsa and the MLS eight team to say we're not trying to get everybody to the point that they can build, but we wanna have mechanisms where folks share their ideas and then we know we have the capability to realize the best of those ideas.
That to me, is a very elegant mechanism and we think about kind of culture transformation. It's really hard to overstate the importance of that kind of event and moment in the what it does to the hearts and minds of the people of the organization.
[00:57:21] Henrik Werdelin: A hundred percent. Maybe that's the good spot to stop and then for the people who have not heard this, the conversation yet, they should definitely check it out 'cause it's awesome.
And for the people who have listened to the whole conversation and have reached this point, thank you so much for listening all the way through. Um,
[00:57:37] Jeremy Utley: wow. Thank you.
[00:57:38] Henrik Werdelin: Thank
[00:57:39] Jeremy Utley: you, thank you, thank you. I think that's, and
[00:57:41] Henrik Werdelin: then as always, if you have suggestions, comments, idea, we read all the stuff that people post on Facebook and we're very happy with all the comment that people put on the various platforms.
So thank you. Thank you, thank you. Keep doing it and subscribe. Thank you. Like all this stuff.
[00:57:54] Jeremy Utley: Introduce us to your cool friends. Yes. You know, we love that I, we have people who go, Hey, you know, you need to talk to, and then you know what happens? We get Hamza on the pot. Okay. This is what happens. We have friends who introduced us to Hamza.
[00:58:07] Henrik Werdelin: Who should we talk to next? And with that, we only have one thing left to say and that is, bye-bye.
[00:58:13] Jeremy Utley: Bye-bye.