In this episode, Blair Vermette, founder of Rabbit Hole, shares his remarkable journey from traditional television production to the forefront of AI-powered creativity. Initially sceptical - frustrated, even - by AI’s impact on creative industries, Blair found himself at a crossroads. Instead of resisting, he leaned in, exploring AI’s potential and ultimately redefining what was possible in storytelling. Blair walks us through the creation of his viral Adidas spec ad, Floral, the project that propelled him into the AI spotlight and reshaped his career. He discusses the challenges of scaling Rabbit Hole, the unpredictability of AI-generated content, and how his background in editing and directing gave him a unique edge in the space. A natural storyteller, Blair introduces his philosophy of “breaking the spine”-thinking conventional story structures to craft unexpected, engaging narratives. He also shares insights on curation vs. creation, the role of human instinct in working with AI, and the future of creativity in an era where technology is rapidly changing the game.
In this episode, Blair Vermette, founder of Rabbit Hole, shares his remarkable journey from traditional television production to the forefront of AI-powered creativity. Initially sceptical - frustrated, even - by AI’s impact on creative industries, Blair found himself at a crossroads. Instead of resisting, he leaned in, exploring AI’s potential and ultimately redefining what was possible in storytelling.
Blair walks us through the creation of his viral Adidas spec ad, Floral, the project that propelled him into the AI spotlight and reshaped his career. He discusses the challenges of scaling Rabbit Hole, the unpredictability of AI-generated content, and how his background in editing and directing gave him a unique edge in the space.
A natural storyteller, Blair introduces his philosophy of “breaking the spine”-thinking conventional story structures to craft unexpected, engaging narratives. He also shares insights on curation vs. creation, the role of human instinct in working with AI, and the future of creativity in an era where technology is rapidly changing the game.
Key Takeaways:
Adidas Spec Ad: BlairVermette/AdidasAd
Blair's Instagram: Blair Vermette (@_blairvermette) •
Rabbithole: RABBITHOLE | creative studio
LinkedIn: (10) Blair Vermette | LinkedIn
00:00 Introduction to Blair and Rabbit Hole
00:25 Blair's Journey into Generative AI
01:53 The Impact of Generative AI on Creativity
04:35 Creating 'My Name is Gary'
07:51 The Cost and Constraints of Traditional Animation
14:38 The Making of the Adidas Spec Ad
19:02 The Viral Success and Its Aftermath
24:08 Scaling Up to Meet Demand
27:20 The Dilemma of Building a Team
28:55 The Importance of Instinct and Originality
29:48 Professionalism in Creative Work
30:16 Leveraging AI in Storytelling
34:50 The Value of Obsession and Specificity
36:02 Entrepreneurial Ideas for Creative Growth
44:02 Breaking the Story Spine
48:18 Navigating the AI Transition
50:58 Final Reflections and Encouragement
📜 Read the transcript for this episode: Transcript of How Blair Vermette Went from AI Skeptic to a Pioneer of Viral AI Videos |
[00:00:00] Blair Vermette: hi, my name is Blair. I am the founder of rabbit hole. , you probably may have seen my, , spec ad that I did for Adidas called floral. , And I am obviously immersed in AI now. I absolutely love it. , and I feel like this is just, we're literally just at the, very beginning of this and, yeah, I'm absolutely excited about what's to come.,
[00:00:25] Henrik Werdelin: So probably a good place to start. Blair . If you don't mind kind of just. Tell a little bit about how you got introduced to Gen AI and , uh, what you kind of thought was important for you to kind of like, do with it.
[00:00:40] Blair Vermette: Okay. Well, I think I have this pretty well rehearsed at this point. I come from the world of television. Um, I am creative. , in my spirit and in my abilities and through and through, uh, always aired on that side of the brain, wherever that, that rests. Um, I worked in television for, , approximately, and this is the Canadian landscape, by the way, we should probably establish that.
So working in Canada in television, all the major broadcasters over here, , for a good, uh, 15 years, I would say. And at some point had this concept for a TV series. That got picked up by Ovation in the U. S., which is a California based, channel. , and I took that opportunity to start my own production company. And, , then that went on for about, uh, 11 years. And then the pandemic came. And that was a full stop, I think, for a lot of us in the creative industry. A time to reflect and try to figure out, well, what do we do now? And you guys know, like, you know, marketing budgets and TV dollars and all that stuff that just gets squashed in times like that.
So I decided to go freelance and I started to go back to my roots of directing and producing. And, in late 2022, , I started to see the beginning of generative AI start to come out. And of course, my curious. Creative mind started to, to mess around with it. And my, actual initial reaction to it was one of, , anger and frustration. I feel like I'm always like, I'm always fighting the two sides of me in that it's like politically motivated, uh, capitalism, motivated, , technology sometimes has such an impact on us as people and then impacting jobs and create, and in this particular case was going to, I could already see the writing on the wall and that's 2022, which is a lifetime ago in AI.
So I always say I had my eat, pray, love moment, um, you know, swelling tears and anger. And I was just like, Bullshit, like these guys don't give a shit about how they're impacting people. It's just the mighty dollar is going to just bowl over industries of people that have been working away at their craft to contribute to their creativity.
And, uh, you know, I had a couple of days of that frustration, but then when I. Woke up one morning and wiped away the tears and I, realized like this is not going back in the box. Uh, and so I do what I always do and I just started to, you know, I, I always have a technical ability, I think, to take things on and learn them.
So I, I, I decided to investigate and be curious and I started to play around with the tools and as you can imagine at that time, it was very, we all know that AI in 2022, early 2023 was very. Um, not effective, uh, very soft looking, very slow, everything is very slow motion, a lot of artifacting, you know, it wasn't very good, but I think someone in my situation, it's the holy grail because I am a storyteller and I have the ability, technically, I come, my background as an editor allowed me to suddenly.
Look at what these tools could do. And for someone like me, it just opened to my world of possibilities.
[00:04:04] Henrik Werdelin: Do you remember you've obviously now well known on the kind of gen AI internet, because you've done a bunch of videos that has really blown up. And so kind of curious, both to go through some of the more practical.
Tips and I think we can go a little bit nerdy and talk about like how you create consistency and stuff like that but maybe to start with talk us through the moment when you went from just playing with a toy to kind of like when holy moly this might actually become big.
[00:04:35] Blair Vermette: Well, I think for me personally, um, yeah, , so there is a, popular software that it's a, , , image or text to video tool called runway. I think everybody knows about runway now. Um, and I think they were kind of leading the way at first with being able or allowing people to be able to create videos from images and .
In the early days, they were creating, , like, uh, film marathons that, , basically , would start on a, , um, Saturday morning, , and end, uh, on the Monday morning needed to be submitted. And what they would do is give you sort of three categories that you have to choose from. And then you had to create, uh, using, , runway and then using mid journey for images at that time.
And I think for me, that was the first. That was the beginning of everything because I created a cartoon called My Name is Gary and the story, it was the story of this, um, , alien that lived amongst us that essentially is, , uh, alienated by people. I think the underlying sort of message when I put that together was like, as, he looked around, he was like, you know, I'm, you know, you got, I'm treated as an alien.
I'm treated as a monster. But when I look around at the way humanity treats each other, really, the monsters are all around us. Like I'm the least. invasive monster that there is. And I'll be honest with you, man. It was like a, it was a, uh, uh, woke up. I was, I was committed to it. I signed up Saturday morning.
I was like going to do it, but I got, but I drank a lot on the Friday night. So I got hungover. And when I woke up on Saturday, I looked at my girlfriend and I was like laughing. Cause I'm like, Oh wow. So I really timed this out very well. And, but Saturday during the day, I decided, you know what? I'm, hungover I'm a bag of Shite.
So I just sat with my laptop. We had the TV on the background. I started messing around mid journey and the idea started to come. And so the span of that Saturday, suddenly Gary came to life. And it was crazy because it's the extension of where AI I think took hold for a lot of us is that the reality of it, the tangible imagery that starts to actually the things that you're conjuring up in your head, you can start to see it come to life in front of you.
I think that's An insatiable thing for those of us in this world just to be like, I cannot do this. Otherwise, I cannot hire a team of animators to do this kind of stuff. Um, and so suddenly Gary started to come to life on that Saturday and I was like, Oh shit. And as I sobered up and drank more water, I was like, Oh no, this is actually happening.
I have to commit now. And I kind of went all in and it was obviously a very long Saturday night, a very long Sunday night. And then I put. My name is Gary into the ether with the rest of the, competitors. And, um, I came out as a finalist and, uh, that was it. I was hooked at that point.
[00:07:25] Jeremy Utley: Can we just one comment that I just wanted to touch on briefly. You said, I cannot do this otherwise about, you know, having a team of animators, I think there's something to finding the thing that you can't do otherwise. That's kind of cool. Why could you not? hire a team of animators otherwise, what are the constraints, the real constraints for you, Blair, that Saturday that made you feel like this is enabling something that I couldn't do before?
[00:07:51] Blair Vermette: Well, I think, with traditional production in any format is going to require dollars, big dollars. And if you're going to do any kind of animation at a high level, you're going to need a lot of dollars. Animation traditionally is, it's very expensive. Um, and the immediacy of me building a story in front of me, the way that I was able to do it is, what I'm referencing right now that I was legitimately creating an animation that, that is, , high quality, uh, albeit again, go back to, , this was 2023 at the very beginning, go back to that and recognize that, uh, AI at that time was very slow, right?
Everything just felt like slow motion, but I could still get Gary. To who had facial expressions, I was still able to animate the people around him and stuff like that. That's an impossibility. It's not something where it's not that I would not have loved to produce an animation prior to that, but I just didn't have the resources nor a contract in place to be able to do something like that
[00:08:50] Jeremy Utley: for those of us who don't know. Movies at all. When you say it requires lots of dollars, like what's the scale? If you were to, if you were to commission a team of people to create Gary from your mind, the way you were able to do it that Saturday, hung over on your couch with mid journey, , I mean, somebody who literally knows nothing, is it a hundred dollars, a thousand dollars, 10, 000?
What are we talking?
[00:09:10] Blair Vermette: Um, just like the animation that I produced or like a full animation production.
[00:09:17] Jeremy Utley: Well, whatever you were thinking, I can't do this otherwise. What is that level of investment?
[00:09:23] Blair Vermette: I mean, to that extent, , what I was able to produce with Gary, I think, the, the video is about a minute long. Um, at that higher level, I would say, uh, like, so typically, I own a production company, what I would need to do to access a budget and get a better sense of the cost of it, I would need to get in contact with animation company to have them cost it out.
So if I had to just take a rough guess, probably at a high level, 50, 000, 100, 000 easily. Um, but again, , let's, talk about the nuances there. What I was producing was very slow. Uh, it was very done in slow motion, and so I think that if I hired an animation company, a lot of it would be more the movement, the motion would be in real time. And so, you know, , it would look better than , what you're seeing in front of me. But again, the fact that. I'm hung over on my couch and I am putting that out there. Um, and it got received extremely well that I became a finalist. So, ,
[00:10:21] Henrik Werdelin: Can I ask a nerdy question on, , , , how did you go about making the facial, , expressions, you know, kind of aligned to what you were imagining?
Was that literally just prompting a different way? Like, you know, the character will now smile in a. Quirky way kind of thing.
[00:10:39] Blair Vermette: Yep. It's a lot of it is prompting. Um, , and, , Henrik, you and I, I think I've had this chat. I think the, thing about AI that everyone has to understand is that the AI is not controllable a hundred percent and never will be. Well, actually, as we refine the tools, they're becoming more and more. So ,
[00:10:57] Jeremy Utley: it's just like a person, right? It's you can't, if you had an intern or you had a junior production assistant, right? , no one would even think to say of their production assistant. They're a hundred percent controllable, right? The fact that we even have to specify that about an AI, it's, kind of interesting, right? Cause it speaks to how much we think about it as software rather than intelligence.
[00:11:15] Blair Vermette: Yes.
[00:11:16] Jeremy Utley: But I don't think about any other intelligence. We would even, we would specify that it's a benefit that it's perfectly controllable.
[00:11:23] Blair Vermette: I know. I know. So then we get into scary territory. But the thing about the AI is that what it does is this is the way I look at it. The AI will you, you do your best to prompt and create based on your ideas. And so it's prompting in itself, guys, is a craft of learning , what are the proper words? How can you visualize things in an AI language? So that's a whole other craft in its own. , but what you do is you work the crafting of the prompt over and over until you start to figure out, Oh, this seems to be landing much closer to where I want to be. And so, the AI is understanding this language model that I'm using now, or the way that I'm sentencing this structuring it, it seems to understand this better.
So it's, it's a lot of. Repetitive work at trying to figure out what the prompting is, but as it spits out the animation, it's unpredictable. And so AI always does is it gifts you, and I always tell people this, and certainly when in a commercial world, when I'm working with clients, I said, you have to be prepared for what will happen is that the AI will gift you, it will gift you imagery, it will gift you a scene that you didn't exactly ask for, but it delivered it to you.
And this is really becomes now about curation. So people always talk about creators. I always call it curators because it's about learning how to take what the AI is giving you and then figuring out how do I now use this gift that's given me this beautiful and there's a moment like in Gary, you can see it where, um, Gary's dog, which is an alien animal is kind of like, you know, he's, I didn't ask him to sort of look down and, he's panting.
I did ask him to pan, but he's looking down, but he looks down, but he kind of looks up and then he looks back down again. And it's like, You know, someone might say, Oh, I don't want the dog looking down looking up, but I'm like, but that's a moment to like a shy dog is kind of excited, but he's looking. You got like he's bringing their the eyes, bringing them to life in a different way.
And that's where I feel. Um, you've got to be able to see the goal that it gives you and, you need to be able to be malleable with your storytelling.
[00:13:29] Jeremy Utley: So wait, but what, just, just to dive into that example, it's a super interesting is what I'm hearing. Correct. Blair that when the AI gifted you that sequence, you actually hadn't had in your mind dog looks up, down, up, et cetera.
But then once you receive that gift, instead of saying, ah, I didn't do what I wanted, you go. Oh, maybe it's looking at something off screen, what's happening that caused the dog to look up. And all of a sudden there's a collaborative dynamic. You could say that emerges. Am I hearing that? Yeah. That's a good way to put it a hundred percent.
I love the idea of curation, especially because to me, , I think the difference between create and curate is that they conjure different things. They are both creative acts. , can you talk about how you. Cultivate a curatorial attitude or how do you build your curation? Muscles and instincts.
[00:14:22] Blair Vermette: I mean, that's a, that's, I think that's a good question. I think it's a complex question because I think a lot of the storytelling that I do is based on instincts. You know, I know a lot of people are asking me for, they're interested in getting a course on how I built Adidas. Um,
[00:14:38] Henrik Werdelin: Could you also like just quickly maybe tell the story about Adidas? Cause I think obviously it is something that made you very famous and, people might not. Have connected your name to a spot they probably seen on the internet
[00:14:50] Blair Vermette: let's use, uh, let's use Adidas as as the case study. Um, so Adidas came out of me , feeling like I had been, uh, doing a lot of, LinkedIn and feeling like there was a lot of curiosity around AI. And it's interesting because, and I'll just add this tidbit first. When the pandemic hit and I went freelance, I feel like I have a good portfolio of work that I've done with my production company and as a director.
And I was out there pounding the pavement to make myself available as a director and getting very little in return in terms of people that were interested. , and. The other side of the fence while I was messing around with AI and starting to put out Gary and starting to explore and put out, uh, you know, sharing things that I was playing around with.
The interest was growing very quickly on that end of things. So the, instinct for me right away was that the appetite for AI is huge. And, and as an individual that is not getting a lot of work at the time, And suddenly you're getting a lot of interest. Like, I mean, ask yourself, you know, the fork in the road.
What direction am I going to start pushing into? And where am I going to start spending that time? So naturally, I started to push more into AI, but I was always going to do that because as I look back now, to me, it's just, , it was becoming everything for me in terms of what it was allowing me to do. Um, so then at one point I was looking at, uh. There was , an ad put out by, , Dave Clark and it was a perfume ad and, , he just did such a good job of it. And Dave, Dave's always had such a strong Dave's well known the AI industry. Now, I think everybody knows who he is. Um, but he has, he's always had such a great instinct with cutting, uh, similar to my style of cutting.
, there's an awareness to cutting to beat, making it very succinct. Um, and his ad made me realize like, you know, I haven't put out an ad yet and, you know, I do work in the commercial world. So I feel like it's time for me to flex a little and show off what I could do, uh, in that space. The direct line for me was Adidas is my favorite shoe.
And so I'm going to use that. I was inspired by this idea of floral. Uh, David used floral in his ad. So, you know, a bit of a cheat there because I saw Dave spot. I was like, fuck, , can I swear or no, no swears. Yeah, sure. I love floral. So I was like, I married the two in my mind , and it all started with a, the song that I used by Megan Lee stallion had that Japanese., hip hop fusion feel to it. And I love the track. So it started with the music. So even though I wanted to do an ad, it has to start with the music.
[00:17:39] Jeremy Utley: But wait, just, to be clear here, Blair, cause I'm, I'm, a representative of our audience where I'm not familiar with the backstory here. You commissioned yourself. Okay.
[00:17:51] Blair Vermette: Yeah. I mean, I was, it was, time for me to put out a spec ad and start to really show what I could do on that end of things. And so, uh, for me, it was. And I think these things float all the time and you'll probably notice that in your own lives that sometimes they just converge at some point because they're just floating.
So I see Dave's ad, I see, I think Floral is beautiful, and then I, and then the track, that track was really hitting me. But the production has to start with the music. 100 percent always. And this is another thing that I think a lot of people don't necessarily go into creating something with that point of view. But you can see when you watch that ad, it is the music. that really takes you on this journey.
[00:18:31] Henrik Werdelin: And I think for me, like, you know, and obviously during Blair's to, um, humble to mention this, but like it blew up, right. And like this at was everywhere for like a whole. AI internet cycle. Um, and it was like definitely the thing that kind of brought you know, me to , the attention to you. Um, when did you kind of like start to like, was it immediately that it kind of blew up or was it kind of one that those that kind of like simmered for a little bit and then suddenly it picked off?
[00:19:02] Blair Vermette: Uh, I would say it was the first couple of days, I got some really good feedback. Uh, so I was like, you know, the ego was getting, was getting filled. I was excited. Like everybody would be right. And I was like, I started getting followers and stuff like that, but it didn't really hit me, I think until my, , LinkedIn, uh, overnight my LinkedIn, you know, you see the little brackets with numbers, right.
Knowing that suddenly, like you hadn't checked your notifications, the brackets. Suddenly the brackets that I had put out on, I had then shared it to my Instagram, same thing, brackets with big numbers in it. I was like, what the F is going on here? Excitedly. Uh, and it's, it started, I think at first with a lot of feedback and then, um, and then a lot of inquiries just started to follow.
And I, I really did not understand what was happening genuinely. And then, I think , when I started to, , catch up with that, I started to realize like, I am not. Professionally represented here. I had already started rabbit hole as a brand that in my mind at some point, Hey man, if AI keeps going this way, maybe this is my second 2.
0 with a company. I'll build an AI company. I'll start to build a studio. I'll start to do some AI work. It gives me a chance. I've always been an entrepreneur. So it's just the natural instinct for me to build a company. AI is growing. I'm getting some interest, but then rabbit hole look like it was a bag of shit. There was nothing there. , the website looked like nothing, uh, very unprofessional looking. And so I had to suddenly, you know, put on my best suit and, start to treat this. , with the respect it was getting, but I'm, I'm shocked guys. Like what, Adidas did to me, I think to this day, I'm still, it's a, it's still a bit of a head scratcher to me. Like, I, I think it's a great piece,
[00:20:48] Jeremy Utley: what was the pragmatic or tangible, when you talk about, you start getting inquiries, like tell for folks who don't know about the rabbit hole and the business, what happened as a result of that piece that you self commissioned either, both with Adidas and then beyond.
[00:21:05] Blair Vermette: Uh, . I started to get inquiries, uh, I think agencies came first,, which blew my mind because I thought for sure at the higher level of commercial work that agencies were not, not only were they not looking at it, they just weren't touching this stuff with the 10 foot pole when you hear about concerns around legalities.
It's just a quick assumption that a brand attached to an agency is not going to have anything to do with AI at this point, at this stage, holy shit, the agencies came and both for representation and both for work commission right away. Um, and you got to remember, man, like it was arid, like I am not getting the work, I'm not getting a lot of work at that time.
And suddenly to get this influx is, uh, you know, excitable at first, very excitable. Um, bubbling at first, but I didn't know what was coming. This was literally like the first small waves that were coming in. I didn't know it was a tsunami was going to come. And I do feel like there is a blessing for me in that.
I feel like, , this isn't all about a quality video. I think that there's timing and luck that comes with a lot of exposure. If something goes viral, it's. It's, it's kismet. There's something that happened that, all converged the same time that exploded something. So I feel very blessed that it just got shared.
It got exposure really quickly. And so I'm just a lucky guy. Like I'm fortunate.
[00:22:28] Henrik Werdelin: How many views do you think is, this is going to gather by now?
[00:22:32] Blair Vermette: Um, I don't really know. , it's funny because , on YouTube. Um, and my instagram, like the numbers aren't that extremely high, but someone else shared it on instagram , he had a, the, the headline to it saying controversy Adidas does full out in AI, which is horseshit.
And so I wrote him personally and I said, Hey, dude, I'm like, I think I feel like you're just stirring up some negativity here because you can see a lot of the people in the responses were upset. Right. This really bothered them. But he, he was just trying to create, stirred it up in the headline.
And I, and I wrote him and I said, Hey dude, like, uh, a, this is not, Ditas had nothing to do with this. This is a spec ad. It's clear. Like it's a spec ad. I don't want to get into any trouble with this. It's just me messing around. Spec ads have existed since the beginning of times. It's beginning of marketing.
I was like, so I just created a spec ad. So it's not adidas. And I said, also, would you mind crediting me and putting my name on it? And you know, he came back negatively on that and was like, why would I do that pretending to be you? And I was like, okay, that's, good. I appreciate that. I said, but you know, you're, you are enjoying the, fruits of my labor here.
And your account is doubled and tripled and quadrupled since I'm like, would you not want to credit the guy who's kind of helping you balloon? And he's like, well, we'll see, like, I'll give you credit in three days or whatever. So his, yeah. Okay. Thanks. That video on his account has got 10 times the views that I received.
And it's because it got shared by an Instagram account that has close to 2 million followers. That's why that blew up. So you can imagine had they shared it from me, a lot of that would have come
[00:24:06] Jeremy Utley: . , this, this may or may not be interesting. So feel free to say if it's not, but you mentioned a tsunami of demand and you mentioned that things were arid and to use kind of like the nature metaphor, I know that when the ground is dry and there's a lot of rain. Most of the ground can't absorb it, right? Cause it's so dry. Can you talk for a second about what did you do in terms of organizationally to scale up to meet demand? And specifically, one thing I'm curious about is how do you start to cultivate that curatorial mindset in other people and build the skills of a team that you're building to service the demand that maybe came in?
Again, I don't know if that's a legit question or not, but that's on my mind is like, it's one thing for you to do what you know how to do. It's, It's another thing to start to grow others who can replicate and meet the demand.
[00:24:53] Blair Vermette: , that's a great question, Jeremy. And I think I'm trying to figure that out still now. And it's like six months later, Adidas is still, people are still reaching out to me because of Adidas. And, to answer your question, I think there are two approaches. You look for, as these contracts come through, um, or as the inquiries come through, direct to brand or agencies, um, a lot of it is an inquisitive point of view. First of all, they're approaching you from just an inquiring point of view. You don't get everybody just coming saying, hey, we want to do something with you. Here's a contract. Let's go. Was fortunate with BarkBox that I was able to cultivate a relationship quickly and we decided that we were going to move ahead together.
And as a result, we have a great relationship, but that's not everybody. And a lot of it is they just want to test the ground. They're not sure. A lot of people are confused. They feel like they're so excited by what Adidas is. Is they want an Adidas for their product and that's everything from diapers to furniture to cars to like, whatever.
I've been approached by so many different brands in terms of how do I like, I am currently overwhelmed right now and I am trying to accommodate, um, Trying to figure out how to grow rabbit hole accordingly. I'm in a chicken or egg situation. Henrik and I have spoken about this I am in a situation where The contract needs to come it needs to sign the money has to come then I have to put forth and go and seek out The people that can do the work and at this stage because it's early.
I still feel like there is A lot of people, those of us that have committed, that are at a high level of doing quality work, , it's still a small lot of people. I feel like that will change over time., But , you can imagine the people at the top of their skill level in ai, they are busy, they're inundated.
So I'm just another guy trying to reach out to them saying, Hey man, I got a project. And they're like, yeah, fucking get in line . And that's honestly their reaction. They're like, bro, amazing man. Tell me a bit more about it. And they're the ones that are really good because they're in demand. They're asking, they have a price tag attached to them.
I have a, uh, a situation of like, do I look for people that are showing a raw talent, their hidden gems with no exposure? Do I build that team out? That's a masterclass. That sounds arrogant, but that would be my version of my master. Well, it's like, uh, I'll
[00:27:12] Jeremy Utley: just say it differently.
Maybe that sounds better. Is your, do you want to take on apprentices, apprentice? Right. Basically.
[00:27:19] Blair Vermette: Right. Yeah. So do this is the question I'm dealing with right now is, do I build a rabbit hole team and impart what I know as best as I can, obviously I'll oversee everything, or do I continue to go after those that are well established
that give me less headaches and a peace of mind to be able to take on a project. And I know they're going to deliver on it. And currently at the forefront, I've started with people that are very talented. And, uh, you know, some of these projects are starting to come through now.
[00:27:47] Henrik Werdelin: Maybe just to riff on that a little bit.
Cause I think it touched a bunch of things that we normally talk about in this podcast. If you were to hire a apprentice. What do you think is the skill that makes somebody, um, capable and with high potential in this field?
[00:28:07] Blair Vermette: Henrik, I knew you were interested in, in applying. Like I could tell, I knew this is, this is something.
And, and
[00:28:13] Jeremy Utley: what, and what email should he send his son?
[00:28:15] Blair Vermette: And then also I'll provide the email at the end, Henrik, for you. , Uh, good question. , I feel like the people that were in production, that already had a skill in editing, um, we have a term called predators, it sounds kind of bad, but, predator is a producer editor, people that can handle that understand a story, have the technical know how to then work with music and massage.
Images into building a story properly can conjure up story in their brain. I think those are the people that are best, , Established to do really good work right away. I think in terms of instinct. So I think that , you can already see it. I think in video in some of the work that's going out that some of the stuff that just looks so slick, just so well put together that for me, it has to be something that tweaks me
it's not just catching my eye, but I feel like there's something they did there that I'm like, Oh, that's that is such a novel. That's such a different approach. That's such a, what were they thinking when they did that? , I want to be tweaked too. Like I want to be able to, to be surprised by stuff that people are putting out and I feel like, fuck, that is so cool the way that they thought to put that approach or thought to put that together, or they have such a keen eye for imagery and how to use the AI to, to put.
The elements together to suddenly put something beautiful in front of them. So I think it's pretty natural that you'll see people that are naturally at a higher level. To add to that, I think that there are artists that are good at, at crafting, but then I, I feel like there are those that also understand, and it's certainly in my industry now when I'm dealing with clients, there is a professionalism attached to the person that can also do the craft work.
[00:30:03] Blair Vermette: Someone that understands the needs of clients, that understand that they need to respond to what the clients, need. So they have a response to that. They know how to address this stuff professionally. They know how to put a creative brief that that looks because here's the thing about the industry. Even though the industry is starting to adapt AI and they're very interested in it, they still have the same pillars in place in terms of how do you approach the client?
What do they require? And usually they need a proper brief that has a proper breakdown. They need to visualize it. They need to see how this is going to look. So a true storyteller is going to have all of that and be able to tell that story both on paper and then be able to
[00:30:39] Henrik Werdelin: You don't pick a lot of technical, uh, abilities when you mentioned your, list of potential apprentices, like , I, agree with you, but it is fascinating that it's storytelling, it's professionalism, you know, like it's a bit of grit right now, but it's, not necessarily the ability to write Python or to understand how to set up like a. A 3D Rick,
[00:31:04] Blair Vermette: , whether or not they are, avid in, um, being able to use, , animation software or open source, it's going to show in their product. I think the product itself has to stand at the end of the day, no one gives a shit about what's in ketchup. They just love the taste of it.
And I think that that's important. And when I'm looking at that visualization, and it goes back to my original point of like, if there's something in there that really got my attention. And I'm like, how did they do that? , to me, that will be likely there was an experimentation of tools that they use.
And hey, man, I would love nothing more than to bring someone on that, I can work on on a project with and perhaps I learned along the way as well.
[00:31:42] Henrik Werdelin: , for somebody like, , myself, who is not an animator or an illustrator, um, but like to tell stories, , where would you go to kind of like, just get your feet wet at doing some of this thing Oh, it doesn't require that you have a background as a, predator Oh,
[00:32:02] Blair Vermette: I mean, , I think there are.
Plenty of people that are providing courses. I think if you need the that general one on one, I think there's a lot of ways to do that. If you don't want to spend any money, go to YouTube. It's all there. If you just want to learn the tools at some point, instinct has to kick in. We're not all good at things like I guarantee you, I can, get a saw and some hammers and I can start doing some carpentry, but, but the instincts, the end product of that carpentry, okay.
You know what I mean? It's not going to look like someone who was built to do carpentry. There's an instinct in all of us to be really good at something. Like Enric, you, you have that entrepreneurial, the intricacies of how your mind works to be, able to develop and, and look at different businesses and the infrastructure of those businesses and build them out.
Like. We would all be doing that if we could do it.
[00:32:47] Henrik Werdelin: It's interesting when you mentioned, um, you know, one of the people, uh, Jeremy that Blaine and I work with at BarkBox is Miguel who runs our AI and used to run creative. And he made like, I thought in the same point the other day, we were looking at this Volvo ad, which I also think was a spec ad, this beautiful ad of like, you know, a Volvo car.
Driving through kind of like this, , waistline city landscape and then trees start to blossom. So like, it's beautiful. , and it's like, I think the headline is something, you know, this app was done in like 36 hours. Now it turns out that the person who did it was of course, somebody who does car photography.
Right. And so I think Miguel's astute points was, yes, it took 36 hours, but because that somebody have probably spent the last 10 years kind of like creating a visual language and then have the ability to create the terminology. To explain exactly what would happen for his in his eyes to somebody else.
Right. And without that, it wouldn't have done like, it wasn't that somebody just went down to mid journey and saying, make me the most amazing Volvo ad, right. It was probably make me a car driving through this specific landscape where the houses are this specific way, where like the trees will start to emerge in this specific, like, like that is the specificity that you need in order to get those results. And I think that's, I think your point too, like if you do have like the skill and the probably experience of being able to put words on the pictures that materialize in your brain, that's probably like a, head start.
[00:34:15] Jeremy Utley: you know, what's an interesting. I've been listening here, Blair, you asked the question earlier.
Basically. I'm overwhelmed. I'm trying to figure out how to grow. Do I take on apprentices or do I hire folks who are expensive or at the forefront? Something just maybe to read it back to you in case you all didn't hear what I heard. I heard this Volvo ad was produced in 36 hours, not by someone with a bunch of technical ability, but by a car photographer.
I wonder whether the kind of arbitrage area Blair for you would be defined. Is there an inquiry? That right now you feel if I dedicate a time, I could deliver a world class ad, but you know what I need, I need the person who's obsessed with Volvo, so to speak, and there, then it's actually not about storytelling.
Perhaps it's certainly not about technical ability. Maybe there's an interest or a curiosity, but I wonder if that's a non obvious selection criteria for an apprentice is I'm looking like, and remember how your Adidas whole story started. I love Adidas.
[00:35:16] Blair Vermette: No, no. And the music though.
[00:35:18] Jeremy Utley: And of course, of course, of course.
Right. But my point is, I wonder whether there's an interesting and kind of counterintuitive selection criteria, which is I'm not looking to take on art school, a print I writ large, you know, if it's your ad, I'm looking for the person who's been following Dior for the last 20 years since she was 12 years old, who, you know, data, data, data, data, right?
And it's, there's like a purpose built apprenticeship. That's almost by client that gives you the requisite, call it training material. That's actually not about technical ability or even storytelling ability. It's about obsession with that brand that to me, it feels like there's a cool way to kind of arbitrage someone's unique interests and marry them with your ability to result in a cool direction.
[00:36:02] Henrik Werdelin: This is where the entrepreneur kicks in. It also. Better business model, because you might then come in saying, Hey BarkBox, Uh, we, you know, like we haven't released it yet, but we've commissioned Blair to do some work and it is, I think, mind blowing. So like, uh, I look forward to show it to the world, but obviously.
Well, the output that we asked for was the video, because that is the output you're known for, right? But we would be very happy for you to say, you know what? I know this dog lover that understands, like, the anatomy and, like, the moving pattern and the behavior of dogs. And I will be able to train this person to do this.
And so I'll deliver the video, but why don't you also get this person that I've trained for you and I'll take 20 percent of first year salary or whatever.
I guess.
[00:36:49] Jeremy Utley: Almost like a recruiting agency, right? Like, like, uh, you know, a hiring agency will get a portion of their salary if they like a success bonus.
And you could imagine an apprenticeship model where you're actually. Like, uh, you know, PepsiCo leadership program where somebody rotates through where a young person is obsessed with dogs rotates through the, rabbit hole program, and then is seconded to bark and you get, you know, a kickback. Right. And then your next, your next, you know,
[00:37:15] Henrik Werdelin: Blair, can I tell about the other idea that we bounce around for, Borg?
[00:37:18] Blair Vermette: the way, when I see Enric doing this. I'm like, Oh shit. A new business will be founded before the end of the interview.
[00:37:24] Henrik Werdelin: I I find this to be very fascinating, one of the things that Blair does very well, which is very difficult, is to create consistency in video. And so I spent a lot of time just trying to understand, like, how does Blair do this?
And he has this kind of specific method for how to make sure that basically this three to five second clip, you know, like that you could produce can be consented with the next three to five second clip, which is complicated. And one thing that we had talked about is that we as Bark Would like to buy that system that he created for us, not the general system, but just the one that creates the visual.
So next time we want to build another three to five seconds, instead of going back to Blair, we can just kind of go to our own laptops and saying, you know, put it into the Blair system of bark and then kind of get that out. And so I do think it's fascinating. for an entrepreneurial point of view to say, how do you take people like yourself who basically stumble into this new world?
And now, like, it's becoming kind of limited by the fact that people want to buy the giraffe, right? They want to buy you and your skills and not directly transferable. And I think in other kind of industries like law firms and trainers, you know, like they've been trying to do different kind of like versions of this, but it's kind of interesting.
Can you kind of like create a completely different approach where it isn't just about piecemealing Blair? It is about trying to figure out how do I productize the system that you are inventing? And then. Selling that off.
[00:38:55] Jeremy Utley: What okay, Blair, we're just reinventing your business. You didn't know that you're getting a consultation with entrepreneurial, you know, gurus here.
[00:39:02] Blair Vermette: Where's my pen and pad here? My, what am I doing?
[00:39:05] Jeremy Utley: You can listen to the podcast once it's released. as well. It's most beneficial usually to the guest. Um, but I mean, imagine this, right? You have an annual rabbit hole conference and the attendees are your former apprentice who are now inside of these organizations.
Right. And every year, part of their employment contract at Bark or Dior or Adidas or whatever, is they get a week with it to go back down the rabbit hole. And , there's a story sharing and there's tactic sharing and there's upskilling, right? You could imagine the rabbit hole being almost like an escape from the corporate, like to put BarkBox in a box, the corporate buttoned up experience, like one week, a year, I get to go back down the rabbit hole.
Like, this could be , a development experience that is enviable and covetable. And, um, I loved, I'm just riffing on Henrik's idea of don't just leave the video, , leave an ability, leave a capability. And then to me, then the question is, what could you do with that network of equipped people?
Like, what if every rabbit holer also gets to bring a friend or somebody from the business? Like, there's a really interesting kind of a concept here that goes, I think gets you better work and starts to help you scale your expertise. And then by the way, reap the benefits of the network operating inside of organizations.
It keeps you on the learning curve as well. Yeah. So can we, can Henry, can I get 2026 rabbit hole conference? I just want to make sure.
[00:40:35] Blair Vermette: Well, I hope so. I mean, after, after what you just proposed there, I think you deserve at least that I think the, um, , the automizing or the automation, , Henrik that you're speaking of, though, again, I think that, that this is where the tricky part is.
And I'm learning this is that there are people that, as I build my team, there really is some kind of magical sort of nuance in the skill set in the understanding of how to tell a story that is It's not, I don't find it's common. I find it's a rare thing that people, those at the highest level that just, they just seem to have, I think, to be honest with you, I think the heart of it is curiosity.
So what you're seeing a lot of people, I think is that , they have this, uh, interest in the capabilities of AI. They have this interest of like, man, cause I hear this all the time. Like, oh, I can, I can, I can create my own movie now, but what I think might be missing and I'm not judging anyone on this, but I think if.
If I were to look deeper, if there isn't a true curiosity into exploring the story at a deeper level, I just, I feel like , you're always going to get a lot of vanilla storytelling, if that makes any sense.
[00:41:48] Henrik Werdelin: I think this is such. A profound kind of like conversation that I don't think that we really have gotten to yet as we've been excited about genitive AI and that is what is it that makes things magical and special and I think and we talked about this in a previous episode with Nicholas Thorne that I'm building this autos with that we on the entrepreneurial side got convinced that you We talk about LM wrappers.
I actually think that the trick is to think about what is the human wrapper to the LM and what I don't think we have good words for is what does it mean when you have taste and you pick? What does it mean when you have originality so that you're prompt? What are all those different words that we kind of all say and use all the time?
But as we are trying to codify them to understand where does the human Kind of like start and the AI end we actually, I don't think has like a, at least like I haven't heard like a good way of kind of describing this because I think your point is, incredibly spot on. And that is without that spark with at that.
Acorn without that kind of like nucleus or something, it is just random prompting and it all looks the same. And I think that's one of the issue with all this stuff right now is that, uh, a lot of this AI work is fine. It looks pretty, but it just didn't really make you feel anything.
[00:43:21] Blair Vermette: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that is blocked by, uh, a belief. That people are doing things instinctively rather than to challenge the instinct. In other words, they see ads. This is how ads look. This is how people lay them out. This is how they typically use them. So they decide to go down that road. I'm going to, I'm going to go to the ABC model of how people put ads out.
And rather than challenge themselves, the opposite for me is usually, if I see something that looks vanilla, it's been done before. It's not going to stand out. There's nothing original about this. Then I have, it, it, it irks me. It really irks me and myself so I have to stop it and I have to say, okay, deconstruct this or break it.
I have a term called break the spine. If I ever teach anymore, if I ever teach, if I ever get my course out, one of the important things that I need to address with people is the ability to break your story spine, break it. Stop with the arc. Everybody's always doing an arc, right? I mean,
[00:44:19] Jeremy Utley: that's one of the classic techniques just for folks who aren't familiar with storytelling We teach it at the d.
school at Stanford the story spine It's you know once upon a time and every day until one day and then what happened and then Until finally and the moral of the story is right that's like a classic narrative arc and Blair just said something I would say is Sacrilege, which is break your spine. Yeah, please explain.
[00:44:46] Blair Vermette: Yeah, I don't see how in any other situation a spine break is good for anyone. But in this particular case, because you can, so basically the predictability of, I understand the story buildup, um, the foreshadowing. I understand that you need to build the story up and then eventually you bring them home, but break it so that the moment that you look at the story yourself and you can predict.
Man, I don't know about you guys, but most movies that I watch, I'm that annoying guy with my girlfriend that is spewing shit out , as the scenes are happening. She's like, shut up. Right. Or I'm like, oh, the fucking guy. It's the guy's brother who's going to shoot. She's like, right. And I'm like. And I'm annoying to do that.
But the reason I'm doing that isn't like that is the extent of your unpredictability that's what you're going to do. But too many little moments. There are predictable that are giving away a predictable ending. The break the spine means somewhere along the way, somewhere in the middle of that story.
Take that chunk and start with that somewhere in the middle. But make it a moment in the middle that is already something that's very curious and let that be the thing that starts the story so that people right away are like thrown off, get them thrown off and let them meet that part in the middle again when it finally comes back to it and it's the aha.
Oh my God. Like what the hell?
[00:46:07] Jeremy Utley: Well, you know, that's a technique. Actually, I never thought about it that way, Blair, but you know, with a lot of podcasts or YouTube videos, things like that, they'll take the kind of most interesting piece. And , the person will say, and the most important thing I have to say is never, and then they cut it and they're like, welcome to another episode of And then you spend the whole, you listen for like an hour to get to that one thing that they kind of bread crumbed at the beginning.
[00:46:32] Blair Vermette: Yeah. Yeah. But , I'm even talking about something more unpredictable than that. Don't have the guy comes out of the, from behind the curtain with the gun moment have the. Um, the guy's loading the gun moment before the curtain and he comes out like don't even have the curtain come out moment because even that's too predictable. I guess my point is that and by the way, the break the spine has a lot to do with music. Everyone uses music as a linear thing, but it's not like the ability to reedit everything that you see in any ad that I've made.
That music was not used linearly. Somewhere I edited because I needed the crescendo to happen here, or I needed the music to drop off here. I'm not going to wait for the music. I'm not going to search 20, 000 songs so that I could find the perfect 30 seconds that I need. I'm going to just, if I have the music, and that music, by the way, it's not one song.
It's not one track within that track. There are a million different stories happening inside the track alone. And that's the people don't explore that. So I always say break the spine of the music, just break it, break the pieces that you need and use them however you need them. Where does that instinct come from?
That's the questions we're really asking. And for me, it's just the need to be original, the need to push something because I feel like I'm just laying something out and I've lost it. I'm not challenging myself. The moment I feel like I'm doing that, I get frustrated. So I don't know where that comes from.
That's instinct. Is that experience? Is that a combination of instinct and experience? I don't know. Talent. Is that talent natural? Is that earned?
[00:48:10] Henrik Werdelin: Blair that's awesome. Before we end anything, you don't think that we've talked about that we, we should have talked about?
[00:48:18] Blair Vermette: Um, Yeah, I feel like we're at a, real, um, transitional point right now for, , traditional creative production and where AI is now becoming quite invasive in that regard.
, I always. Basically qualify myself as the victim and the invasive species here, because I understand the impact of the fear that is causing for people that have not only the roles that they play in production today, um, the fact that some of them have had to hone their craft over an immeasurable amount of time. Um, to get to the point that where they're at and some of and that is their career, that money is going to support their family and like, so you can imagine the fear of your job being obsolete suddenly because this technology comes and just what makes that obsolete or simplifies it to the point that it took 10 years to learn to animate and suddenly I comes along and it's just wiping that out. So I feel for a lot of people out there that are. are scared and angry and are lashing out at AI. And I understand where that comes from because I too went through it. But I guess at some point you have to sit back and ask yourself like, well, what now do you have to have that? What now moment you have to figure out for yourself.
Well, it's not going back in the box. So what do I do? You can still be angry at people, lash out all you want, but that will not resolve, that will not be the answer to what your next steps need to be.
[00:49:44] Jeremy Utley: If you had to recommend, Blair, what are folks options perhaps for two or three next steps they might take after that kind of what now, or to fuel that what now exploration?
[00:49:54] Blair Vermette: I would hope that you explore, you start to lean in. You start to learn some of the tools because fear is a powerful thing, man. It will, basically put up a wall between you and realizing that like I too need to be immersed myself. I would learn some of the tools start to play around. I think if you start to create something that you're proud of, or you're like suddenly like, Oh, this is cool.
Uh, maybe then you'll start to open up to the possibilities of it. And it won't feel you won't feel so estranged from it. But it's, Not going to go away. Like, I don't know what else to say to people. I can empathize with you, right? We can have drinks and get drunk over it and shed tears, but it's not going to solve anything at the end of it. So I think it's important though, that, that the people like me in the production world, that, are in this world now that have adopted AI you can hate me, but I too was being impacted by this It's just a decision change. It's a mindset change So something I think to think about
[00:50:52] Henrik Werdelin: I think that's Incredibly important and thanks for uh, for bringing it up.
Jeremy, I mean, like, he's just a fascinating person, huh?
[00:51:02] Jeremy Utley: Yeah, but I mean, I would say, I mean, simple kind of reflections just as, as we wrap here. Um, I had no idea that it would cost, you know, a hundred K to make a one minute animation.
[00:51:12] Henrik Werdelin: I think that's even like, you know, my wife, she was a visual effects producer on, Narnia and Harry Potter and stuff like that. And I think that might even have been like a low number. Like making animation is just incredible expensive.
[00:51:25] Jeremy Utley: I think that's something, you know, that, I mean, those of us who are just kind of having like a mid journeyman. Ooh, you like that mid journeyman kind of having fun on a Saturday. I don't have a sense for what it takes to conjure a team of animators at my beck and call.
Right? So for someone like Blair, who knows, like, I literally could never do this before. Like, what can I do? That was kind of eye opening for me just to understand the implications of what What the technology enabled for somebody with his incredible pedigree in terms of being a producer, being a storyteller now, whereas he couldn't hire animators before now he's like sitting on his couch and he's making a one minute short that becomes an award winning thing.
Right. That's pretty cool.
[00:52:04] Henrik Werdelin: I mean, like, yeah, and it is really fascinating. I mean, like we'll link to, , his work in the show notes. Cause all the videos are just really incredible. I think what, for me, there's like a few things that's very interesting. One is I really do think It's just such an interesting point of time where we try to, where actually it's not about AI, um, increasingly becoming necessary for us is to define what is it that makes human originality very unique.
Like, that, I think, is just not something that, I've spent A bunch of time kind of thinking about, but increasingly now with AI, the unique thing about AI, besides it being a brilliant technology is how it really, , empowers people who have that innate skill for something. And that I think is just fascinating, because I think without that, it just becomes average.
[00:52:57] Jeremy Utley: It reminds me a lot of what Ginny said about bringing your humanity to the model. It's kind of the only thing that can differentiate you from normal. I think it reminds me, too, of what we heard Nick Thorne say about, uh, you have to find the areas where you vehemently disagree with the model, right?
[00:53:13] Henrik Werdelin: Jenny always said which I think is fascinating. like it's, AI doesn't do anything until you prompt it, which, you know, , of course with agents, it can, but like, I just like this idea that it is literally nothing more or less than just like playing back to you something that you originate.
[00:53:30] Jeremy Utley: , one thing I really liked that Blair emphasized, and there were so many things I wish we could have circled back to, but his question, what are the proper words?to conjure this s image that's in my mind, he said, like, and I had the question in my mind, how did he learn it? But then he answered it through repetition. He just kept trying, kept trying, kept trying. And then he said, AI then gifts you this thing. Even after you get the right words, it's actually what you didn't ask for.
That's the kind of creative epiphany.
[00:53:57] Henrik Werdelin: Which also is a wild thought because AI obviously doesn't have the, and this is something my wife pointed out, This is me roughing my wife, but like, uh, AI doesn't have the constraints of a human brain. It doesn't care, right? Like, and so you can suddenly get the gift back of something that is kind of truly unworthy because that, uh, you prompted it in an interesting way.
I think the second thing, which is just so interesting, and I think it was like fascinating and cool that he kind of. Allowed us to talk about is that I'm sure a lot of people listen to this podcast and I'm sure people like him have this kind of interesting moment where they sit now with this capability and gets this attention and they're trying to figure out, like, how do I make sure I capture this moment?
How do I make sure that, you know, like all this inbound now become something that I can kind of, you know, utilize and that I think is also not a kind of a completely trivial question.
[00:54:52] Jeremy Utley: Yeah. I mean, by the way, I loved our ideas to build his business. I hope he takes us up on them. I hope we do get invited to the conference.
Last thing I wanted to, there's a bunch of stuff, but just in the interest of time, I'll , share one more thing I thought was super cool is this concept of commissioning yourself and perhaps that's something that's normal to an ad person or something, making a spec ad he said is as old as marketing itself.
But I think if that reminds me actually of something Noah Breyer said to us on the podcast while back around, don't wait for somebody to give you the brief. Like the way to start doing this work is to decide you're going to start doing it. And it was just cool for, for me to hear Blair's story about, he saw this perfume ad by Dave Clark.
Um, it kind of inspired him, the floral, it reminded him of a song that he loved and a brand that he loved, but this idea that. He said, quote unquote, it was time for me to put something out. And I love that notion that he just felt like it's time. And I, feel like perhaps for a lot of people, I want to say that to you. , this is the message time. It's your time commission yourself, put something out there. If you don't do it, nobody will
[00:55:59] Henrik Werdelin: love it. Let's end on that. Thank you, Jeremy.
[00:56:02] Jeremy Utley: Thanks, folks, for listening today. If you enjoyed this episode with Blair, please hit like. Please hit subscribe. Give us a very honest five star review, glowing, honest, exuberant five star review, and share with a creative in your life who you believe needs to commission themselves for their calling.