In this episode, Devin McNulty, founder of Funmentum Labs and creator of Funware, joins us to explore what happens when you treat fun not as fluff—but as a powerful lever for doing serious work. After 15 years of leading high-stakes strategy and innovation workshops for Fortune 500 teams, Devin set out to scale his approach. The result: Funware, an AI-powered facilitation tool that helps hybrid teams run faster, more creative workshops—without needing a pro facilitator in the room. He shares how it works: from AI that rephrases vague challenges into crisp prompts, to bots that throw out just-bad-enough ideas to unlock new thinking. We dive into the deep end of design choices—why Devin treats AI like a co-facilitator, not a thought partner, and how he builds in levity and timing to shift posture in skeptical rooms. He talks about “pre-training” AI the same way you’d brief a human teammate, and what it means to productize your own facilitation brain. The conversation is also a blueprint for AI-first entrepreneurship: how to turn creative intuition into software, how to build with (and not for) users, and how to design tools that spark real interaction—not just outputs. Whether you're leading workshops, building internal tools, or trying to make your team more idea-generative, this episode is packed with insights on creative AI, team dynamics, and the future of facilitation.
In this episode, Devin McNulty, founder of Funmentum Labs and creator of Funware, joins us to explore what happens when you treat fun not as fluff—but as a powerful lever for doing serious work.
After 15 years of leading high-stakes strategy and innovation workshops for Fortune 500 teams, Devin set out to scale his approach. The result: Funware, an AI-powered facilitation tool that helps hybrid teams run faster, more creative workshops—without needing a pro facilitator in the room. He shares how it works: from AI that rephrases vague challenges into crisp prompts, to bots that throw out just-bad-enough ideas to unlock new thinking.
We dive into the deep end of design choices—why Devin treats AI like a co-facilitator, not a thought partner, and how he builds in levity and timing to shift posture in skeptical rooms. He talks about “pre-training” AI the same way you’d brief a human teammate, and what it means to productize your own facilitation brain.
The conversation is also a blueprint for AI-first entrepreneurship: how to turn creative intuition into software, how to build with (and not for) users, and how to design tools that spark real interaction—not just outputs.
Whether you're leading workshops, building internal tools, or trying to make your team more idea-generative, this episode is packed with insights on creative AI, team dynamics, and the future of facilitation.
Key Takeaways:
Website: Funmentum™ Labs
LinkedIn: Devin McNulty | LinkedIn
00:00 Intro to Funmentum Labs & Funware
00:38 Why Fun Is a Powerful Work Strategy
01:41 Overcoming Skepticism in Serious Workplaces
02:27 Techniques to Engage Resistant Teams
06:32 Can AI Be Funny? Humor in Corporate Settings
08:03 How Funware Uses AI to Drive Group Creativity
11:43 Automating Workshops with AI-Powered Prompts
14:04 Devin’s Path from Facilitator to AI Builder
16:21 Advanced Prompting Techniques in Funware
28:34 Creative Prompting: Logos, Personas & Play
30:04 Exercises to Push Beyond Obvious Ideas
31:35 How AI Unlocks Group Innovation
36:55 Pre-Training AI for Better Collaboration
43:35 Using AI as Muse, Challenger & Focuser
48:46 Final Thoughts
📜 Read the transcript for this episode: Transcript of Prompting for Originality: How Devin McNulty Is AI-Enabling His Workshop Business |
[00:00:00] Devin McNulty: Hi, my name is Devin McNulty and I own a company called Funment Labs, and we've been bringing fun into work for 15 years at really, really big companies and using it to get results. And in last two years, I've been taking my workshop fund method and automating it into a.
a. Software called funware, which allows to tap into some of these insights and run these mini workshops on their own. And I've used a ton of knowledge I've learned from Beyond the Prompt to me figure out how to do it.
[00:00:34] Henrik Werdelin: likely that we'll live in this age agentic
[00:00:36] Jeremy Utley: Devin. Professor McNulty. Okay. Yes. Um, I wanna dive in because you've done something. So I've been using your tools for a a while and I am quite delighted at how much fun you bring to the workplace. And I wonder whether you could just talk for a second about fun as a starting
[00:00:55] Devin McNulty: Yes. Yes, absolutely. For me, my obsession is not fun. That's kind of extra or frivolous or on the side, but fun to try to get some of the hardest work done. Such as like landing our strategic vision and then making that actually matter in the week to week work of a company or, . Figuring out what our big 360 marketing campaign's gonna be, that we're gonna spend millions of dollars on.
And using these fun techniques to to get groups, exploring new avenues they might not normally, and then trying to align faster, sometimes cutting out months out of a process, um, just by getting people into a different head space.
[00:01:38] Jeremy Utley: There's so many questions I wanna ask. What? Objections get raised when you lead with fun. I can imagine if I think about the hugest entertainment company or the hugest, uh, financial services company, you lead with fun and there's probably some resistance. Can you talk about the resistance and why fun? What resistance? How do you overcome it?
[00:01:57] Devin McNulty: Yeah, yeah. Um. Well, one of the things that I've been lucky enough is just to have so much proof at this point that I can just point to, like, I've done this, this, this, this, this, this, and this, and talk to this person. Um, so that's an easy way to shortcut that. But, , your main question is, one, I don't have time for it. Or we did something that was fun and not much came out of it. Um, or like, I gotta, you know, I gotta go to this meeting, I gotta get this thing done, and I'm a serious person. but what I oftentimes love, okay, so I was doing , this big presentation or this big interactive training workshop, a three hour thing for like 250 biotech executives. And the thing that the main person told me right before I went on stage is he said, there's gonna be a lot of really skeptical people of you out there. And I I was like. Thanks. Great. I appreciate you saying that to me right before I go on stage. But um, then, you know, so it's like, I always know, it's almost like the body language starts like this and for listeners it's like I'm just sitting back and folding my arms and furring my brow.
And then once you just get people, I just ask people, just give me a little bit of your energy and just try to start. And if you're still skeptical at the end, up and talk to me. But what ends up happening is like the body language slowly changes. People start getting into it and then by the end I get mobbed with people just asking me like, how do we work more like this?
Um, and it can be a little tricky because there's very certain techniques like around like creativity and psychological safety and specific mechanisms to try to actually use the hard parts of work and to turn it something that feels a little fun. Um. I'm not sure if I answered all your questions Jeremy, but that that was me.
[00:03:40] Jeremy Utley: Yeah. Yeah. You're getting there. I mean, , I think this is the heart of so much of what we believe, right? In ideation, creativity is, um, dispelling this notion that if it's fun, it's probably not work or the reason it's work is because it's supposed to not be fun, right? And you just, yes, you lead with fun, which obviously we're deep believers of.
What would you say? I, I love that, you know, kind of furrowed brow, crossed arms. What are your kind of go-to tactics to shift someone's posture set aside? They're totally embracing just how do you address the skeptics and what are your first moves, so to speak, when you see a room full of 250 biotech execs with their arms crossed?
[00:04:20] Devin McNulty: Yes. Well, one of the first moves is I try to preempt that completely. So I would recommend doing cold opens where when people start coming in, you just start pairing them up immediately and giving them something that feels like a fun way to explore something that's real. So you might say like, all right, I'm just gonna pair you up with somebody and I want you to discuss a time, like a memory related to.
Getting rejected for a credit card. If the larger exploration is around, how do we get more people to sign up for our credit cards? And so there's just this way of, it's almost like exploration around, like can go directly at something or you can break the script and try to, um, get people exploring or bringing up memories.
Or especially funny memories around something that will ultimately come back around and serve as fodder for your, your larger question. Um, another one, and this will be nothing new for you Jeremy, but is just, , ask people to just generate lots and lots and lots and lots of thinking, whether that's with, um, visual thinking, so just putting lots of things up on the walls or exploring with mind maps, , and then. Giving people space on their own to kind of think of something. And then pairing them up with people that are outside of their world and having them give feedback, uh, and building something big. it's funny 'cause like in some ways what I'm describing might not necessarily sound fun, but when you do it in a way that, , moves really fast, like especially for the, the Zoom ones that we do You just invariably get people saying, wow, that didn't drag.
And I think that's a huge part, especially for some of these executives. It's like there are meetings all day and it feels like the conversations are circular. And so if you can have a moment that felt like, whoa, like i. We didn't perseverate or politic, or we didn't spend too long on any one thing. Um, it's almost like that's even more fun than having a happy hour where we're all just kind of chitchatting, which I think is what a lot of people think of when they think of fun at work.
[00:06:30] Henrik Werdelin: Um, Can I ask a question, Devin? Um, sure. And maybe it's a little bit of a change of tone, but what is ai funny.
...,
funny. Ha.
[00:06:38] Devin McNulty: Um, no. Well, not really. It's kind of funny, right? Um, and so, you know, we'll of course get into like, like my journey into ai. Um, but I found AI can be really like with very certain specific prompting you can. Create a container where it can be funny, but if you ask it to tell jokes that are gonna move an important corporate conversation forward. No way.
[00:07:06] Jeremy Utley: Henrik, wasn't that one of Steven Johnson's kind of observations, right? Yes. When we asked Steven from Google Notebook, lm, he talked about how it has yet to be funny. I think, by the way, as an, I saw a paper last night just posted by Ethan on LinkedIn. Shout out to an earlier podcast guest, Ethan Molik, but he. He referenced how now ais are creating memes that are judged by humans to be funnier than human memes, which it seems like an advance, like breaking news kind of moment. But just for the record, it seems this may be an evolving, uh, you know, part of the jagged frontier, so to speak.
[00:07:42] Devin McNulty: Yeah, no, I actually love that. cause I think that that really is an advance, 'cause if you can hit humor, it's almost like higher, higher order thinking of like, oh, like you can, you get a certain sense of me, you get a certain sense of culture. I hadn't seen that thing from Ethan yet, who's obviously amazing. But, um, that is, that, that's next level.
I haven't seen that yet.
[00:08:03] Jeremy Utley: Let's go into the AI journey and maybe, yes, maybe very simply we can go backwards to your journey, but what role does AI now play? I mean, folks now kinda have a sense for, you're bringing fun as a way to advance far more rapidly than an environment without fun. Yes. What role does AI play in how you do that? Like how do you use AI to accelerate your own acceleration process?
[00:08:27] Devin McNulty: Yes. So basically, um, we created a, uh, product called Funware, which is designed for teams of five to seven people in hybrid situations be able to run. a. Workshops on their own, um, brainstorming workshops, retrospectives, lots of other kind of workshops, key in the project lifecycle. And so what we're using AI for is these little moments where, 'cause oftentimes, if you think of ai, it's like a, it can be mainly a solo pursuit. And I use it of course all day, every day. But it's mainly me. Going back and forth with it, and it sees like long conversations and long prompts. But with Funware we like to have essentially, it's like an AI button and it does one thing really well. So for example, when I'm starting a workshop and I have a, prompt such as, okay, we need ideas to get more listeners for our AI podcast beyond prompts, just to choose a random example, bit straighter. um.
We have a button that's like ask the AI robot to rephrase your challenge. And so then the AI robot will give some other, uh, rephrasing challenges such as, I just did this right now. You know, it says, Hey, here's a different way you could say this. How do we utilize social media strategies to increase our listeners? Or do we create partnerships to expand listenership? Um. You might say
[00:09:53] Henrik Werdelin: there's quite a lot of people that have asked to have like a semi nude calendar of Jeremy, which we're kind of working on for the, for the fall. I don't know if that
[00:10:01] Jeremy Utley: will work. That's what you've been doing in mid journey, isn't it, Henry?
... Henry?
[00:10:05] Henrik Werdelin: to the point where my wife's getting really, really good concern.
[00:10:08] Jeremy Utley: There wasn't jealousy at the beginning of our, beyond the prompt journey, there no jealousy. There is, there's a fair amount of jealousy now.
[00:10:13] Devin McNulty: it? Well, I'm. Um, and so for that one, that one might be a little bit straighter. It's like, where's the fun in that? Um, and then afterwards when you start like a bad idea, brainstorm, the AI gets in there with you. And I've done like many, many, many prompts to get it to the point where it just automatically comes up with bad ideas that also have like a sliver of insight. And are kind of like slightly fun. And so they're designed to push the group's thinking. So you've got four or five, six humans in there that are all coming up with bad ideas. And you know that it oftentimes takes a, force of personality facilitator like me to get people into that head space of like, no, I know you're at work, but I want you to actually come with bad ideas. And so the question of.
Could I try to create that environment where I'm not there and it's just a group on their own doing it while I'm.
Trying to make it so the AI kind of , , greases the wheels a little bit, starts coming up with bad ideas that are fun or with a different exercise where you choose a celebrity like Beyonce or Garth Brooks and now they're a version of them. And the AI is coming up with ideas with you for how to get more listeners for beyond the prompt or.
Um, You know how to improve the product features or whatever you're thinking about. And I've seen again and again with how the AI injects that little bit of levity, but it's not designed just to be frivolous. It's designed to get the group actually opening up their thinking and pushing in different directions.
[00:11:43] Jeremy Utley: Okay, so, so I just gotta interrupt you here, Devin, because I've used your tool, I've used it in workshops and sessions, design thinking stuff. And what I would say is. The ai, uh, you, you said it well, what historically would require someone who's a facilitator like me, dot dot, right. That's kind of, that's, that's a phrase you used in that description. I think one thing that's interesting is. AI as the person who's responsible for the container or responsible for the interaction, which is a very different kind of framing for AI than a lot of like people, you know, might treat AI like thought partner, right?
But actually handing over the keys of facilitation. And the other thing I just wanna call out here is most folks, you know, if they say how to bring AI into a brainstorm, it's like, okay, now we're, each of us individually. Also having like a chat GPT window open. Right? Yeah. And what you've done with Funware, which I think is super cool, is you have said, no, this is an environment where the group comes and AI is actually gonna facilitate you in a group setting in this environment.
Can you talk for a second about this role of displacing yourself, for lack of a better word, because basically in a sense, you just hired AI out to do your job, right? is gauging To use a phrase.
[00:12:56] Devin McNulty: Yeah. Yeah. Well, in some ways it's like, uh, I would hope to be able to get to the point where it, it can much more replace me. Like right now I'm primarily, um, kind of coding these exercise flows. , and then I'm injecting AI in little specific moments. Like, Hey, come up with bad ideas with me. Help me rephrase this challenge, prompt. Um, come up with good ideas at the end when everybody's put things in, synthesize them into some final insights folks.
But eventually, um, I would love to have the ai I. Live like, okay, so Jeremy, you know how as a facilitator, sometimes you have your plan in place and then you get in with a group and you say, you know what? I'm changing on the fly, I'm actually gonna do this exercise instead. Totally. Like, I would love to get the AI to that point. We're not there yet.
[00:13:46] Jeremy Utley: Say, where the AI is actually gauging folks, interactions or maybe even lack of interaction, and then on the fly says, you had asked me, you know, person who handed over facilitation to me. You had asked me to accomplish this. I'm now sensing that the group actually needs this first perhaps in order to get to that goal.
[00:14:02] Devin McNulty: Yes, exactly. Exactly right. And so I'd actually love to just give a little bit of my story to get into ai. Please. Please. And just give people a sense. So, , you know, I've been running these workshops for a long time, um, and before the pandemic it was always in person. Always in person. And it would be this big thing. We get together 50 people in the cool photography studio in San Francisco. Um, and we create this four hour peak experience. And then the pandemic happened and we said, oh no, what are we gonna do? We adjusted and adapted using Zoom and Google Slides, and, um, created a really powerful virtual experience. So then we started asking, what if we could automate this? Like, and we had a former client of ours at Atlassian who came in and said, you know what? Um, I love this so much. I'm gonna come on as a technical co-founder for you, and I'm gonna build this with you 'cause I, as your client in the past, loved this. Um, and then from there, that's all of a sudden when AI came on the scene for me at least, I think it was Chad, GPT-3 0.0, and we started saying, oh, we need to be able to figure out how to integrate AI into this.
[00:15:11] Jeremy Utley: well, you're, you were asking the question, how do we automate this before AI.
[00:15:15] Devin McNulty: Yes, yes. Yeah, that's cool. Before, I mean, AI was around, but, I was in a comedy group for a long time and, you know, maybe seven years ago, a forward looking member, like, took all of our sketch comedy scripts and put it into this like, early, early version.
And it created all these garbled sketches and I. it was a, it was just something we laughed at. We were like, this is so bad. Um, but we're not laughing as much anymore, at about this part.
[00:15:39] Jeremy Utley: tools to
[00:15:40] Devin McNulty: Um, and so. From there, it actually set me off on journey. I said, I need to learn how to do all of this complicated creativity and AI stuff.
And I started, , watching tons and tons and tons of YouTube videos about it. And that eventually led me to you, Jeremy and I, um, I gained you the, the best expert on creativity and ai, and I got obsessed with beyond the prompt. Have listened every episode. Um, and it's taught me so much, um, I've, I've learned so much from this podcast.
Uh, yeah, and then I would love to actually share some of the complicated prompting things for the nerds that I'm doing in the back end of this software, if that's all right?
[00:16:21] Jeremy Utley: Yeah, yeah. Maybe, maybe walk us through a couple of kinda key moments in a workshop, because now listeners are hopefully kinda getting the sense. What's special about this conversation is Devin. is a listener just like you, so to right? Who has been wondering how do I apply these tools to this core workflow that I've got? And you know, leveraging some of the resources that we put into the world and that many others, like Ethan and Connor, lots of amazing people have put into the world. Devon's actually doing it. And so you can think about Devin as, you know, if you're, it's a, if it's a mountaineering journey, he's just a little bit farther up the mountain than you are, so to speak. So maybe Devin, if you wouldn't mind, could you take us through one or two kind of key facilitation moments?
You know, what would you do as a human? And then , what is the process by which you've been getting or been learning how to get AI to do it?
[00:17:07] Devin McNulty: Yes. Yes. So, um, for the moment when somebody enters a challenge, such as how do we get more listeners for our AI podcast, or how can we improve our product based on user feedback or, you know, what would be great?
360 marketing campaigns for a, um, AAA video game, whatever it is. Um, there's this button that says, ask a robot to rephrase your challenge. And the prompt itself is probably about like seven paragraphs long
of what's happening in background. So super high level, it, what I'm asking it to do is I'm asking it to take what the user inputted to, um, figure out kind of what industry they're in to try to gain as much context as it can imagine about it.
Oftentimes people are putting in seven words. So not much. Right? And then to create a bunch of fodder. This is all happening in the background. The user never sees any of this to create a bunch of fodder of how you might make it. Um. The component parts of it. So if it's get more listeners, , come some component parts might like social media strategies or, , partnerships or AI communities, maybe component parts isn't the right word.
It's more like, um, uh, slightly more specific avenues for how to explore. Because Jeremy, as you and I know, . , Oftentimes people come in with, um, ideation challenges that are a little too generic. And so if you can get people to something that's a little more specific, you can oftentimes get better ideas out of it. So I'm trying to use the AI to help, , make sure, , to, to basically, um. Push groups into, slightly more specific ideation challenges. And so in the background, it's taking what they put, it's coming up with lots and lots and lots of fodder. And then it's, um, deciding on three final, uh, like. Replacement challenges for the brainstorm.
And then I ask it to, um, evaluate those challenges on like four different criteria and then plus it up based on that. And then at the very end, to just give the people in the brainstorm the final three, uh, rephrase challenges. And it's even more complicated than that, but that's like the simplest version.
Does that make sense?
where I'm saying,
[00:19:24] Henrik Werdelin: Yes. What a. tricks that you've discovered to atomize the process that you are already doing so that you understand where you should apply AI and where you shouldn't?
[00:19:38] Devin McNulty: Yeah. Um, well, I think a lot of this, and this is that interesting intersection between, you know, 10, 15 plus years of just knowledge of how to run these sessions and hundreds and hundreds of them like that.
Very human knowledge and my intuition of here's what I, here's what. I get that that top of the mountain that I want to get to. And then,, lots of trial and error with AI. And um, and it's interesting just, listening to podcasts like this watching tons of other YouTube videos and sort of just getting inspired by what other people are doing and asking myself the question, how do I get there myself is one way.
And then of course, like the most fundamental insight, uh, which is ask AI how to do it. giving me, so it's that. Constant, , iteration with the AI where I'm saying, here's the existing prompt. Here's the input that, , users put into this, the fake users that I'm constantly testing with. Here's what we got back.
Here's why I like this. Here's why I don't like this. What are we gonna do to this stronger? And then the AI is working on it with me to get that prompt, um, sort of perfect as well here what's
[00:20:46] Henrik Werdelin: very, very nerdy question. Um, I. I'll give you a little bit of background. So over the weekend I was working on, I got chat GBT to write me a Google app script that basically check all the emails I get that has a newsletter markings. And then based on my kind of like things that I'm interested in, it basically summarize all the newsletters I've got over the last 12 hours so that when I wake up in the morning, I can basically just scan if there's something interesting. now. Um, and I don't really know how to code. So, you know, like I, I just use chape tea to do that and every time, you know, I just divide code myself into that. What I noticed a few times was that it kind of like wasn't really giving me, uh, the right results. And so at one point I needed it to kinda completely change the strategy on how it was approaching the problem. and it was actually, I found it to be, if, if I asked it to change the strategy, it was almost like that was like a meta concept that it kinda struck a little bit with. Hmm. Have you found ways of saying, Hey, I'm gonna use AI to reframe, for example, like the problem people come in with or kind of give them really dumb questions. Have you found a way of kind of exploring what are the different methods on which I can prompt it in order to do that? Does, does the question make sense?
[00:22:03] Devin McNulty: Oh, it Makes so much sense. Um, this is where I've actually found some of the limitations from the models too, where I say, okay, gimme like five different for how to do this. And um, sometimes it has interesting ones. Also, I have to say, I did some of this work maybe nine months ago, and so at the, the rate that stuff is changing, that's.
I bet you now if I came back to it, it would've been , a much better partner. So it's almost like I have to put myself into the month of like, oh, I think this was last June. And so, um, but I think now, actually, yes, like if, but it's interesting. almost like you don't wanna overload the AI with too many things at once.
So you might something like, Hey, I'm trying to figure out. This way to get, a, more interesting challenge, reframe. can you give me three different strategies? Here's everything I've tried so far, and just copy, paste, like pages of, context. Can you help me figure out three alternate like ways to get at this? And then I would also just, nowadays I take everything from jeff Woods. By everything I mean that ask me first the interview questions Mm-hmm. you wanna talk about a very specific thing I got outta this podcast. And then of course, immediately read the AI Driven Leader. Such an amazing book.
[00:23:15] Jeremy Utley: Devin Devin's referencing a previous podcast with Jeff Woods, where he talks about leveraging AI as a strategic thought partner.
It's a great episode to listen to. Then he just referenced Jeff's book, the AI Driven Leader. Which is a great book. But Devin, I just wanted to, I wanted to do sidebar on the sidebar. You were kind doing a shout out. I just wanted to make it explicit. You're saying you listened to the Jeff Woods episode, and then in the context of the, of Henrik's question of how to change strategy, how would you leverage your insights from the Jeff episode to henrick? Rick?
[00:23:42] Devin McNulty: So what I would do is I would say, I'm trying to change how I prompt AI in the background. Um, here's what's working. Here's what's not. Before you give me three alternate ways to prompt this. Ask me three questions, one at a time to figure out what it is I really wanna accomplish. And this is straight from that episode in that book.
[00:24:03] Henrik Werdelin: end. Yeah. I mean, I definitely use that where I still think sometimes in as we were talking about. Is sometimes that the extremities of, of the outlier of the ideation I find neats kind of like outlying prompting. And so for example, you were saying gimme really bad ideas, which I think is a very good prompt because then it doesn't give you the generic kinda like suggestion back, if I tend to use, please give me something that is. Completely illegal and not because they necessarily want to do something illegal, but just because it suddenly prompts like it. It goes a different place in its model to try to kinda like reply to that. You're prompting for
[00:24:40] Jeremy Utley: You're prompting for variation.
[00:24:41] Henrik Werdelin: and I think increasingly as we are trying to be I. original, what we're trying to do is to, Cast a net or give the AI the ability to kind of go a place in its AI brain. That isn't the standard answer. It is kinda like the outlier answer because then we can discard most of the answers, but suddenly we'll see something that we haven't thought about it. And because AI is not tethered to this world, like sometimes you can, you know, like you can go quite crazy.
It's like, what would a microorganism think about this specific thing? And it'll obviously answer something back. And then that might kind of. Prompt you to prompt it back something else. And so I was just curious is as you're trying to kind of become that kind of great facilitator, which obviously what facilitators obviously do is that they kind of like take the conversation, all these kind of like different entry points Mm-hmm. and then suddenly something kind of new, something new kind of materializes.
[00:25:35] Jeremy Utley: Well, Well, rik, one thing that you're reminding me of too is that the, a lot of times we've gotta think about thinking in a way, you know? And, um. I think we discussed this on the episode with Keon and uh, Dave McCraney, but human cognitive bias is a lot of times the limitation in collaboration with ai, right. And specifically the bias I think at play here is you just want the right answer. I. Most people when they come to a collaboration with AI aren't actually looking for volume or diversity of, it's just like, gimme the answer. That's a human cognitive bias. And if you become aware that your natural human cognitive bias is to be as lazy as possible and to do as little work as possible, then you can say, actually, don't be lazy.
, and I'm prepared for a back and forth, you know, that's five or 10 rounds long. Right? But that, you know, similar to Devon's prompt of gimme bad ideas, it requires an awareness of the human cognitive bias to say, this is gonna help me, it's gonna help me show up differently as a human to have AI work this way. It's of similar to what Russ Summers told us in his podcast, you know, when he names all of his gpt and his GP team, he names 'em all and gives 'em all a personality. He said it doesn't change what they do, but it changes how I show up as a human. Therefore, it changes what they do.
[00:26:49] Devin McNulty: a place. Amazing. Another of the episodes that totally, uh, blew my mind and changed my life. So to bring it back to fun, we have an exercise where, for your challenge, you can have like a celebrity that's now is the AI coming up with ideas with you and Jeremy, what you're saying is exactly right. It's hard to think. It's hard to try come up with creative ideas and brain is a cognitive miser, so wanna immediately jump to the first thing that like feels like it sense. But when you have an AI partner in there that is just coming up like off the wall or like different ways of thinking about challenge. Sometimes you'll read it and you're like, that's actually really fun. Or like, that's interesting or that's inspiring, or that gives me a little bit of a, uh, something to jump off of.
and so that's almost a way I. to, rather than, you know, having a stick and telling people like, you must think of more ideas. It's almost a way to use positive psychology to pull some of that thinking out of you. You are just gonna settle and go for like. Essentially the thing you did last year, but now that the AI's there and it's been programmed in a super complicated way to give you, like, push it this way, push the conversation this way, push it this way.
I've seen groups take something the AI says say that's not quite right, but that's actually really interesting. And then that leads them to a new place. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:28:10] Henrik Werdelin: One thing that, uh. now I'm kind of a little bit, kind of, uh, stuck in this idea of strategies for prompting AI to give us original, kind of like, uh. Information back. One thing that we've noticed, we have this business called Autos, where we help people build AI businesses. Um, and one of the elements we do is we create like the, the, the logo for people. And one thing we notice is that we've tried to describe. To the ai a logo idea, and then it'll come up with like 10 different logos and then the founder can kind of pick whatever they wanna do.
What we noticed recently is that instead of doing a description, if we do a very philosophical statement, like the grasses is always greener. I. Like, you know, like one of those kind of phrases that people know, for some reason I think it's stable diffusion we do for, images. It comes up with much more interesting, uh, iconography than if we say, give us a logo for a business that does X.
When you go into a group of, and I'll be completely kind of like presumption, uh, of accountants that sits their arms across and you know that the, my job is to kind of like figure out how to find the fun in accounting. What is some of your strategies to kind of bring that out of them? And because maybe we can use the same, uh, trick for, for models two.
[00:29:31] Devin McNulty: Yes. Okay. So one of them, um, that I love is an exercise called Smell That, and you're like, what? Like, I'm gonna come up with smells for my accounting challenge. And what ends up happening is it's very like, um, visceral.
So it has like, people start coming up with up whiteboard marker, and then they start coming up with ink and then they start coming up with. You know, maybe somebody says like, the smell of freshly cut grass, as you kind of alluded, and it's like, wait, why that? And then that ends up, really creating these, these imagery frames that like, uh, then you can draw upon , to find. New kind of avenues. So it's not really about the smells itself, it's about like where that can take your brain in different ways. And then if I think about how we might be able to prompt AI to do that, I think , at the higher level, um, Henrik, what you're saying is like the AI can be too straight. If you wanna ask it for an interesting logo, it's just gonna go back to like every logo it's ever seen and give you something that kind of feels like an amalgamation of that.
And you're gonna be like, uh, that's kind of boring. But if you bring it like very varied imagery or something that actually feels out of frame, this is all part of this like, you know, creativity 1 0 1, which is if you. Combine something that feels very known with that feels far out frame. Sometimes you get a weird combination that doesn't work, but sometimes you get the thing where you're like, oh, that's really interesting. Um,
[00:31:02] Jeremy Utley: yeah. Well, and you're designing for 1% outcome, right? It's like I, my second favorite quote related to creativity is Arthur Kessler. Creativity is the collision of apparently unrelated frames of reference, and it's really hard to find an unrelated frame of reference. It's like almost by definition the human brain is incapable of doing it except by accident. That's why they say the history of innovation is the bed, the bus, and the bathtub. It's like. All the times we can be caught off guard. It's, that's where creativity emerges. The beauty of these models is they're actually capable of doing the metacognitive work, of finding the unrelated frame of reference and even better if you, through smell or celebrity or bad, all these different qualifiers. As an experienced facilitator, if you can serve up to the AI kind of, um, branches on the unrelated tree. To bring to bear. And then the human who's the other collaborator this equation or the team, obviously as you said, they can see these glimmers of possibility. They go, hang on actually, because we're pattern matching creatures.
We long to make sense of things, right? So the AI throws something crazy out there. And if, if provided that psychological safety been said, then one or two people on the team might go, hang on a second, there's something there that's kind of interesting. And able to kind of make something this collision that probably you can make something of a crazy idea that you never could have made from nothing. But to get to crazy required leveraging, uh, intelligence that's unconstrained by relevance.
I.
[00:32:29] Devin McNulty: Yes. Yes. And then the other thing is, um. right selection criteria. setting up the AI to forcing it to go through, um, a much more involved process. So if you really want interesting ideas, you could ask the ai, I. Hey, I want you to first of I. Crazy outside the box. Weird impractical ideas for this. Um, but if you just start there, it can oftentimes come back with things that are like fine or interesting. But if you say things like, I want each to contain the seed of a good idea, make it playful or humorous, and then you ask it. When you generate those 10 ideas, now I want you to evaluate them on criteria like creativity. does there? seed of a good idea, humor and playfulness, feasibility. Now, based on that criteria, I want you to score it and then plus up those 10 ideas and make them more interesting, original, more unique. I found that forcing the AI to like do that extra cognitive work can get you some, more interesting places.
[00:33:34] Jeremy Utley: funny you mention that, Devin, because when Henrik asked the question of what are other strategies, my mind immediately went to asking AI to provide , an objective. Evaluation criteria and then conduct the analysis. And that's exactly what you just said, but AI's ability to be objective about its own work is pretty profound. Right? And if you give it a selection criteria, and if you're not sure what the selection criteria is, ask it to do the thinking of what's the right selection criteria. Then it can evaluate and it's actually pretty, I, I often like to say, be a Cold War era, Russian Olympic judge, you know? 'cause otherwise AI's just gonna be like, it's pretty good, like, you know, helpful assistant.
Right? But you ask it to be a Cold War era, Russian judge, be brutally exacting. It's really good. Like the other day it gave me a 17 out of hundred on a piece of work. I I was like, 17. What?
[00:34:24] Devin McNulty: Like, how are we Now it's got your attention. And so, so the thing that I am, kind of to take the conversation a little bit a different way, the thing that I'm fascinated by is there's obviously the technology is changing so rapidly with ai and like in some respects, . I'm an AI quote unquote expert, whatever that means. Like I'm selling AI training courses to huge companies , but in other ways I feel so behind. But let's just say that I'm further along the head than, , the average knowledge worker in corporate America. Um, so many of the new tools are like these long, complicated chats.
And prompts and like I really have to be bringing so much of my knowledge and brain, and I've spent years trying to learn all this complicated prompting technique I'm curious about, and obviously with Funware I'm trying to create these manicured team experiences where there's a lot of complicated work in the background, but the team itself is just pushing a button. and The button is like delivering all of this value or it's pushing conversation this way or it's providing insights based on what the human said. So kind of theory I have, which is a little self-serving, that the one of the versions the AI gold rush that's happening now and will definitely be happening in the next five years. Is like these highly manicured experiences where people that don't really know how prompt AI well, or maybe they go to chat GBT, they try to do a basic prompt. They are underwhelmed with it. Like, how are we bringing this? Incredibly complicated prompting insight to those people and teams. So they're just experiencing the benefit from it. Right. Right. Um, and this is just my frame as a facilitator. I'm trying to create the thing that I know, but like, how does that, you know, and I know there's big companies that are thinking about this, but like there's of course the world where it's like Agent Force and it's agents doing all this work for you, but how are we using the AI to just bring out the best human thinking?
[00:36:23] Jeremy Utley: . Well, you you know, you know what that makes me think of Devin, is this whole notion of pre-training, right? I mean, it's but I'm just gonna, you know, say the obvious. But when people think about GPT, PT stands for pre-trained,
Yeah. and increasingly the question is what I believe, what have I pre-trained the model to do? You know, and you about this like in a workshop context, Devin, you and I run hundreds of, ideation workshops. One of the pre-training sessions I have to run is for my coaches. I've gotta sit down with the coach team that I assemble I say, here's the program. , here's the client, here's what we're going to do, here's why we're going to do it. Here's uh, the places gonna go. Here's the customers we're gonna engage. Here are the materials for prototyping. I do pre-training with humans. Most people don't think about doing pre-training of model in the same way. And what you're talking about is I want it to be as easy as clicking a button for the customer.
Yes. And it requires for us to be as easy as possible for the customer to effectively click a button is for you, the human or you know, augmented human with AI to have been as thoughtful and thorough as possible to pre-train the model such that when the human clicks a button, it goes, oh yeah, it just works.
Yes. Yeah. yes. And all of that. And it's what's, it's effectively custom prompting, know? Uh, but it's just pre-training of a model that you have custom built to accomplish. Whether it's the reframing purpose, whether it's the get people comfortable saying silly things, purpose. Right. You have all of these kinda micro purposes. Going back to Hendrick's comment earlier about atomization, you have all these kind of micro purposes just in the context of a workshop. Yes. Where if you. If do the pre-thinking, then you can do pre-training and it gives the impression to the user that it's magical.
[00:38:05] Devin McNulty: Yes, yes. That's like what I'm obsessed with. product like this um, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a fascinating question.
[00:38:12] Henrik Werdelin: Can I ask you a last question, Devin? I, I'm very obviously because I'm, you know, very into entrepreneurship and, and how AI is gonna affect that. You know, it's obviously incredible that you have. You know, just looked at your own work and said, how do I basically replace myself with an ai? Right. You know, and, and, and how do I productize that? relationship
do you have kind of like thoughts or fears on what happens next? Right? Like, as in as you you do that? I mean, at first I think it's brave because I think a lot of people just go like, oh, I don't even wanna have that conversation. 'cause like, I hope that will never happen.
Um, I I think it's inspiring because I think that you now managed to create a product out of your services business and so now, like you're kind of like on a pathway or potentially can be making that work for you when you're kind of on the golf course, um, which obviously is what all US product.
People like to see. But then there's also kinda this kind of fear that as these becomes more and more advanced, then some of this work is something that the model will be able to, uh, do itself. And so in that kind of universe of being on the forefront of productizing yourself, where's your current thinking on what does the next few years look like?
[00:39:35] Devin McNulty: Yeah. It's a fascinating question, uh, , you know, in one way I'm just like, it's coming from me no matter what. So, um, I, want be at the forefront of it. Like, if I'm not doing it, it doesn't mean it's not gonna happen. , so that's part of it. Um, you know, do I think that eventually Funware or, any product like this will completely replace need for human facilitation. I mean, maybe I don't think that's in the next years. , if that's happening, it's in the next 10 to 20 years. But then at that kind of place, it's like, so then is Funware actually doing the of, , you a marketing manager and a social media manager?
those are all bots too. And like now we're all bots going through this. Like, I don't know. , I think right now, . I. see there being a symbiotic relationship in the same way that, , there's, you know, a, a very clear thought leadership business model, um, where you become well-known for books and for speaking, and then companies want to come and have personal touch with you.
Like I've built myself into FundWare so that. Um, people click audio instructions and then it's me leading them through kind of the script I would say with a group. Um, so I think as far as like a entrepreneurship model, my hope is that here would be my dream state in the next couple years is that groups are using funware. , deeply in their week to week and month to month work. So when they have a retrospective session, they're funware. When they need to do a brainstorm, when they're doing their weekly syns, it's built into how they're operating. 'cause they're finding value from it. But then when they wanna bring everybody together in person for the big global offsite, that's when they come me, um, because they know me.
And, , they still want that human connection, , is sort of one way to put it. Um, and then the other way is just like.
I know one thing you guys always say is, what's next is now I try to myself, I kinda try to like wake myself up a bit and say, yeah, like I'm way here. But when I look at the with some of my clients, some of my clients haven't even touched generative ai, which is insane, but I'm like, how are using it?
Oh, well they told me I'm not allowed to use it, so I haven't even used it at all. And that just. It Makes me, and then even the clients that are like, oh yeah, we're measured on the amount we use it. When I bring some of this like basic insight stuff about how to use it as a strategic challenger, how to use it as an idea muse or feedback focuser, their minds are blown.
So I guess to answer your question, it feels like in the next few years, um, it's still, that bell is just gonna be slowly moving of AI adoption as far as how things look. In five to 10 years, I feel like there's many things that are gonna happen that I'm just interested in. Just, I just want to be in the conversation.
I wanna be at the and, uh, we'll how it all plays out.
[00:42:32] Jeremy Utley: You are my friend. You are, you are. Uh, I. Of course the most important you said three things. Idea news. Challenger feedback. Focuser, would you give us one sentence each three? I heard there three ways I can leverage AI immediately. I don't know if that's yes, that's your branding or mine, but tell us quickly about Muse, challenger, focuser.
[00:42:55] Devin McNulty: Yes. So, , I just wanna acknowledge that a lot of this is built on the backs of so much knowledge I've gotten from this podcast and other places. So I'm not trying to say that I invented all of but the strategic challenger is basically saying, look, I have this. , big problem. This big project, I'm at the beginning of project and, you know, you do all the things where say like, you're a high powered, seasoned consultant and you know, you really gas the model up to like, give it so that it's gonna give you like high powered. Thinking, and then I'll turn on voice record as a strategic challenger and just talk about my project for like 2, 4, minutes and just tell it everything. And then I say, I want you to push my thinking. What assumptions could I be making? What am not seeing? What are alternate ways of, , attacking my project that, um, I might not know?
And then of course. Always now with every important prompt I have it interview me first. , credit to you guys. Forgive that idea. Uh, and then I'll have it push me on my strategies. I'm kind of a trained strategist by trade and so I will try to force it to like, , put poke holes in my thinking. Um, and then after I've kind of exhausted that, then I say, alright, now I want you to create my full strategic plan at the end.
Mm-hmm.
So that's like. The strategic challenger, the idea muse, the easiest way I would it is you do that same thing where you give this, like, you know, you gas it up, a crazy creative director and you know, it honestly works best it's like a two paragraph where you just really tell it how creative are. I tell it all about my project, and then I just say, I call it the rule of 10. I say, give me 10 ideas. But of course, the most important thing is that the 10 ideas is just a starting point. It's like, give me 10 ideas for my creative challenge. All right? Now I'm gonna pick number six. I want you to give me 10 more like that. Okay? Now I want you to combine number two and number eight, pretend more. And then around that time is when I say, actually I'm asking the question. Like now that I'm seeing this fodder, I actually want 10 more ideas are totally in the direction. Um, and you know, Jeremy, you and I have been teaching creativity for a long time and you I book Idea Flow is awesome. , and. The fundamental conceit is quantity leads to quality of a lot this thinking. But as a human, it's actually really hard to come up with lots ideas. You know, the classic IDEO get to a ideas, i. that's painful. But with the AI, I find I can just like trudge through lots and lots and lots of ideas.
But the point is to go fast, it's like you're just supposed to just like scan and say like. All of this is like bad basic thinking, except for number seven, and then now you're off for the races and getting somewhere interesting. Mm-hmm.
Uh, the one, the feedback focuser. , I, there's lots of ways to do it. I love the stakeholder role play. and again, credit to Jeff and that amazing podcast where you ask it to take on the role of like another stakeholder in your company and you give it all this information about it. And, You know, even like, here's their LinkedIn profile and here's a couple interactions I had with the VP of finance. Okay, here's my deck I'm gonna present to them next week. Can you give me feedback on it as them? And I've done this with clients, and it, just, it, it, blows their minds. It blows my mind when I do it because. I think the higher level idea here is that there's so many things that I know to do, but I just don't remember to do.
And the AI has that like perfect infinite memory. And you said this almost word for word Jerry, but like it has that perfect memory of just like I. Don't forget these five other things, and it's like, oh my gosh. Of course,
[00:46:38] Jeremy Utley: right? I would've for, I knew that, but I, I, and I tell people that, but I would've forgotten.
Yeah. Yes,
[00:46:42] Devin McNulty: yes.
[00:46:42] Jeremy Utley: The number of times AI tells me something I usually would've said but say myself is staggering. Right?
[00:46:49] Devin McNulty: Yes. So those are just like three key use cases. I'm also gonna shout out the episode with, um, the the Moderna head of ai. I think that, , if trying to think about how do I spread, AI in my organization, listen to that episode, he's very smart.
But if you think about AI as like adding team members to each person in the team, it's , especially for people that aren't as versed in ai, it's a very clear conceptual metaphor of like, oh, I gain an assistant, I gain a creative partner, or I gain an muse, whatever. Lexicon makes sense for organization.
And I realize now that like, that's also kind of built on the, Sommers episode as well.
[00:47:31] Jeremy Utley: It's all these, they're all just mutually reinforcing ways of saying some of the same things. And the truth is, honestly, Devin, just like you, we need these reminders all the time. And we can't keep all this stuff of mind enough.
And so it's, it's never, you know, boring repetition. It's always Oh yeah. Mm-hmm. I forgot that. Right. And I think that part of the game is just staying in the stream of knowledge and staying in the stream of inspiration because we, you know, inspiration's perishable. You know, there's a shelf life to everything you hear.
I can't tell you the number of times somebody says they something in a podcast like, you know, that we had nine months ago and they, they think that I still remember it. You know, you don't remember that. It's like, dude, listened to that yesterday. I had that conversation nine months ago.
Right. Jeremy Utley, Devin. Devin Henrik Werdelin, what a what? A what? A huge compliment, by the way, to hear so many nuggets that came from this very show influencing his work. Right. That's pretty, pretty special.
[00:48:28] Henrik Werdelin: I have to say that I think the crack of any entrepreneur is to see their product in the wild. I think, you know, like second to that is like , doing a podcast that you kind of mostly do to learn stuff yourself, and then hearing that people get something out of it that. I dunno. It's just very, very nice to hear. And uh, it's rewarding.
[00:48:48] Jeremy Utley: Yeah. You know, one, well, I mean there's a bunch stuff here we can probably just riff together 'cause this is, how we roll as folks you know. Um, but, you know, one thing that struck me was he said he feels behind, you know, he's, he's a leading user and yet he feels behind.
I saw a study by the American Management Association the other day. It says 58% of professionals feel like they're behind. And you know what I, remarked was the other 42% are liars. Or delusional, or they're just totally out to lunch. Right. I think feeling behind is the norm. If you don't feel behind, you probably aren't far enough ahead. Right? Yeah. And so kind of normalizing that I think is important, and I just mentioned it right at the top of our debrief to say, I. Everyone can't keep up, you know, and so don't be ashamed or embarrassed. It's okay. I think being aware of that's great because it'll give you a little bit of hunger and my advice to folks who feel behind is not go consume more information, but try something, make a habit of trying something.
Like, I love the example you shared in the pod of, um, know, doing your email inbox, right? I think it's really important to be having little micro projects and little experimental labs, so to speak,
[00:49:52] Henrik Werdelin: I I totally agree with that. I, you like this one. I uh, my co-founder Bark Mad Me and I, we've been for the longest time talking about that we should work on this new startup called Waiting for My wife.com. And like, it's just been like joking every we've been waiting for our wife, we've been texting each other like, Hey, I'm working on our new startup again. And then I, the other day it was literally like waiting for my wife at date night. Um, and so. I heard about vibe coding and you know, like just how basically you talk into like, uh, lovable or, or, vibrate or whatever. And so I was like, okay, let me just come up with it. And so I coded up waiting for my wife.com in what turned out to be 14 minutes. And there's now like a little side where you can go in and basically get ideas to what to do while you're waiting for your wife. But the point is, of course, that. I, I think sometimes when we talk about entrepreneurship, we get this kind of into our head that we should think about what the business plan is and how we're gonna raise money for it. And I think we forget entrepreneurship and doing as craftsmanship and just kind of doing it to learn. And so I. I. now like almost out of principle, kind of try every few weeks to have like a new little project that I'm just trying to make, just to learn what it'll take to make it. And then every time I come back with something that is kind of remarkable that I'm using for something else.
[00:51:03] Jeremy Utley: That's cool. The other, almost on the flip side, I would say, because there are some folks who don't have, you know, call it the capacity or bandwidth to just take on, uh, you know, new play projects. The other thing I would say is I, I think part of what's so powerful about what Devon's done is he has this natural sandbox. He's got existing clients, he's got existing relationships. He's trying to do this stuff already manually. And what he's done is he's said, how can I. Turbocharge what I'm already doing with ai, and I think that's a huge, uh, hack, is look at the work you're already doing and see is there something that you could be turbocharging because your own work can be your sandbox for experimentation.
I was on a panel, at, I think, as you know, last week at so by Southwest, and we were talking about, . Gen AI and pro sports, and with one of the pro sports organizations I've been working with, and the moderator is a famous Stanford podcaster. He said, Hey, um, Jeremy? Why did you do this with trail with, with, with this team?
And I said, oh, well, because it's a sandbox, right? It's an. Avenue of experimentation that's very discreet, very pragmatic, practical. And so instead of being abstract, it's, a place to try stuff. And I think if people would see their lives and their existing workflows and stuff they've gotta be doing manually as a sandbox, as a place to try stuff, all of a sudden it would shift from, I don't have to do it to, that just bought me a lot of extra time.
[00:52:28] Henrik Werdelin: Yeah, I know. I totally agree with that. And I think, um, the other thing that's I got fascinated about, I made this framework called eight, the eight plus one framework, which basically how I every week make an analysis of my time allocation and to basically achieve a better life.
And one of the things is called one of the boxes called learn, which is really about trying to what your output is and then become better of producing that output at high quality and at at scale. And I think like this idea that specifically a lot of knowledge workers. Is increasingly gonna try to figure out what is it that they do?
What is it of value they provide to. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The clients that hire them. Then go through the process of figuring out what is the agent or bot that I'm gonna make that will either help me do that, uh, which I think is what you're talking about, but also what is the bot that I'll be able to pass on to the client so I can make money while I'm out of the office. I think that process is just like a process that a lot of people are thinking through and it's kind of like fashion.
[00:53:27] Jeremy Utley: Well, it should be. I don't know if they are, but I would I mean, he said at one point, I wrote this down, it's coming for me no matter what. And that can sound doomsday ish or like Terminator or whatever. Or you could say that's true. Actually it's coming for me no matter what. There's a sense of, I would say, inevitability that I think was, uh, not only sobering, but also I, I really enjoyed and if you, I. Appreciate that sense of inevitability, then you can, you can disrupt yourself, and maybe it's building an automate or whatever, right?
But you can start to productize yourself if you feel that sense of inevitability. I feel like right now there's a lot of folks kind of, you know, fingers in their ears going, blah, you know, it's not happening. It is happening. And if you take some initiative, then I think that you, you have a chance to be just like Devin, I mean.
Devon's a listener to the show who started implementing techniques from the show and he is ended up, I think, worthy of being spot because he is doing such cool stuff, , that's achievable to anyone.
[00:54:24] Henrik Werdelin: It's also incredibly complicated. Like, you know, you ask people, what do you do? Then they'll have the answer like, you know, I'm blah, blah, blah, blah. But then if you're saying what is the output that you are producing that people are willing to pay you money for? Like, then actually sometimes it becomes a little bit complicated and we, you know, like at. We, we try to tickle that out of people, right? And then, you know, the way that we try to frame it is often who is somebody you'd like to serve?
Or who is somebody you're serving and what is a problem they're having? And then suddenly, like that is easier than to transform into something you can create into a module. But I do think if you're very right. Like, I think we should all be asking ourself, , what do I do and how can I create? A version of that, , in an AI world because it's very likely that we'll live in this ENT world.
[00:55:11] Jeremy Utley: If you enjoyed this episode or you feel you've gotten so much from conversations like this in the past that you feel you need to share, just like Devin, reach out to us. We love spotlighting not only established experts and established thought leaders, but emerging experts and the way to. Achieve this level of is by doing something you heard on the show today. Maybe it's using AI as a creative muse or a strategic challenger or a feedback focuser. Do something and then reach out. Let us know how it went. We can't wait to hear from you, and we look forward to seeing you next time on Beyond the Prompt.